Willem Jacob 's Gravesande

[KAS]

Does anyone know if Willem Jacob 's Gravesande performed any calculations whilst observing Bessler's wheel?

He was the foremost authority on winches and gearing at the time and could easily have calculated the work the wheel was producing just by noting the weight that was being lifted and the diameter of the axle that the rope was attached to.

One of his own measuring devices demonstrated this perfectly:

http://brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/museum/esim.asp?c=417018

Yet there appears no evidence of him recording any useful data other that general observations.

I find this strange given the calibre of the man.

Kas

[John Collins]

Hi Kas,

I made a particular point of checking this out when I was writing about him, but other than trying to provide a theory that would permit an explanation of Bessler's wheel, he does not seem to have preserved any notes that may have been taken during his visits. I think that if any notes existed his biographer and editor, Professor Allemand, would have surely mentioned them or extracted pieces from them for his biography.

Frustrating isn't it?

John Collins

[rlortie]

This is a quote I ran accross while looking for any connections between Bessler and the eye witnesses history records.

We have Bessler's side of the story and I have been looking for the witness data to find connections of their letters regarding or in reference to Bessler. The following is from 'sGravesande.

A rather strange episode occurred in 1721 when 'sGravesande visited Kassel to examine a machine invented by Orffyreus which purported to be capable of perpetual motion. He was invited by the landgrave of Kassel to pass judgment of whether the machine was genuine or whether Orffyreus was a fraud. 'sGravesande could find no evidence that deception was involved, and also seems to have believed that such a device would not contravene the laws of physics. Following his examination of the machine he wrote Lettre à Mr Newton sur une machine inventée par Orffyreus: Remarques touchant le mouvement perpétuel.
`sGravesande was a professor at the University of suffering in the Netherlands and member of the “Royal Society” from London. To it among other things the experimental proof of the expansion decreases itself/goes back warming up metals. On behalf of a Londoner community of interests it made an attendance with Bessler, in order to examine and prepare around possible purchase negotiations the wheel. Who exactly the initiators were, is not well-known. One assumes the fact that Newton was involved in it but even not into action to go wanted. This busy well-known-measured with the regularities of the gravitation and was interested in the function of the Bessler Rades probably burning. It is delivered a letter, which `sGravesande Isaac Newton wrote:

” I hope, you do not take it badly me not, if I send a report to you over the examination made by me. I report the details its that resulted in an outside inspection of the machine to you. I am conscious that the things are most disputed, because am finally nearly all scientists against it. The majority holds anyhow to the fact that an eternal movement is impossible. This is probably the reason, why to the invention of the Orffyreus so little paying attention samkeit assign becomes.

Which concerns me, that is insignificant compared to the large number of those, which demonstrated this impossibility, would like I to you my impressions to describe, when I began with the examination. It seems to be me like that that Leibniz erred, when he wrote the impossibility down of eternal movement as axiom. Regardless of this acceptance I was convinced of it that Orffyreus would be removed far from it, to be able to make such a discovery. In particular, because it had before never given inventions in this direction. After I made however now this examination, I must express my express astonishment.

The inventor is talentiert, but it is to be been far from it, a serious scientist. And nevertheless this machine possesses somewhat completely amazing, even if it is actually impossible. Now a description of the outside parts follows. Into the inside the inventor does not let anybody see, so that its secret cannot be stolen.

It is thick a hollow wheel of the kind of a drum, about 14 tariff and 12 foot in the diameter. It is obviously easy, because it consists of several crosswise arranged Holzbrettern, which are summarized in a framework. The whole is covered with canvas, in order to prevent that one can in-see. Through the center of the Rades goes an axle with a diameter of approximately 6 tariff, which ends at both ends with iron camps of a diameter of 3/4 tariff. I examined and am these camps that there is no power transmission from the outside, the cause of the wheel movement am firmly of it convinced.

If I knocked against it completely easily, it stopped again and again, as soon as I mean hand from it took away. But if I shifted it into a moderate speed, I could stop it only with large Kraft again. If I left myself it, it accelerated after two or three revolutions up to its highest speed, which amounted to 25-26 revolutions per minute.

This movement was maintained some time ago in an area of the lock for two months. The doors and windows of this area were locked and sealed, so that there was no possibility of the fraud.”

Article by: J. J. O'Connor and E F Robertson

Ralph

[rlortie]

While I am at it, here is a quote alledged to be from Leibniz. So far I have found little English translation of letters from Liebniz regarding Bessler.

It is a google translation as follows;

Leibniz reported: “Orffyreus belongs to my friends. It permitted me some time ago to accomplish with its machine different experiments. During my presence it ran 2 hours continuously and demonstrated a considerable Kraft. This machine is somewhat completely special, and we should not survey that them can be used to considerable well-being.”
Leibniz thought thereby primarily of the drainage from mines. Filling lugs were at the time at that time an almost unsolvable problem. Since steam engine and electricity were not yet invented, only in principle muscle power remained of humans or animal for evacuating. One had windmills, but these were wind dependent and had to be naturally aboveground set up. Thus the necessity for a vertical power transmission resulted over longer distance. Something, which could manage the technology at that time only with substantial difficulties and losses. The Besslerrad would have functioned also underground instead of its.
Leibniz was not by the way someone, which sat in the ivory tower and had lost as beautiful spirit the purchase to the world. Completely on the contrary, he had pronounced practical talents. To it for example the first mechanical calculating machine decreases/goes back, which controlled all four basic operations of arithmetic. The multiplication functioned on the basis of repeated addition and the division managed it by repeated subtraction. The mechanics for it were very complex. Leibniz had thus a good reality over the activities, tools and materials of a machine-builder at that time.

http://www.nlb-hannover.de/Leibniz/Leib ... roduction/

Ralph

[John Collins]

Ralph, if you had read my book, "Perpetual Motion; An Ancient Mystery Solved?" you could have read the same quotes that you have kindly provided - and in reasonable English. :-)

While I am pleased that people are seeking further evidence about the demonstrations, with a view to adding to our overall knowledge, at the same time it seems unnecessary to go over the same ground twice.

I'm not saying my research is infallible, but it would be good to get acknowledgement for the work I have done. Having said that, I must acknowledge the many kind comments which have been made; thanks guys.

John Collins

[Fletcher]

John .. You are the trusted benchmark for information against whom everybody else is measured. That's why you are quoted so often.

For those who want a more readable version of eye witness accounts, see the 'EyeWitness Accounts' menu on the home page of besslerwheel.com. It's all there.

[rlortie]

Ralph, if you had read my book, "Perpetual Motion; An Ancient Mystery Solved?" you could have read the same quotes that you have kindly provided - and in reasonable English. :-)

While I am pleased that people are seeking further evidence about the demonstrations, with a view to adding to our overall knowledge, at the same time it seems unnecessary to go over the same ground twice.

I'm not saying my research is infallible, but it would be good to get acknowledgement for the work I have done. Having said that, I must acknowledge the many kind comments which have been made; thanks guys.

John,

I have let this simmer for 10 days, it is now time for me to respond.

What's the beef, If you look at the previous post you will see that I posted the Authors names. The second one had no reference to author or copyright, so I posted the link where I found it.

Looks like you also have an issue with Bill over MT on the wiki and related thread in community Buzz. Look at the bright side, I gave you an opportunity to make another plug for your work. which you jumped upon.

I was not aware that joining Besslerwheel.com included a disclosure statement regarding posting translations other than yours.

I do my research in an unbiased approach if I find another version of something, especial in the documented papers of the eyewitnesses. I feel that the forum should be made aware of it. They can use their own judgement as to its worth! And I will quote reference source when available.

In the past we have discussed the issue of me buying your books. You wish to use the revenue to research, find and give away the secret. I hope to profit by it. Why should I feed the mouth that possibly may bite me?

Now on the other hand, if your version had the unwritten text to the remaining pictures that have not been already splashed all over the net, ( I have seen two different versions) then I would be interested.

Maybe you should run a pole, ask how many members already have the text to MT 1 through 54, 56, and the toy group. Those that did not certainly do now!

I am sorry and I do not want any personal conflict, but that is how I see it.
I am still researching Willem jacob's sGravesande and will move on to the next eyewitness shortly.

I quote from the afore mentioned link:

The collection of manuscript papers of Leibniz encompasses about 50,000 items, or 150,000 to 200,000 sheets. These include about 15,000 letters from and to about 1100 correspondents. About 40% is written in Latin, about 35% in French and the rest mostly in German. The collection is managed by the Manuscripts Department of the State Library of Lower Saxony.

A very large portion if not all these manuscripts are now available on the net. How much of this relates or may have connection to Bessler?
Does any unrelated papers show any influence after his experience with Bessler?
Ralph

[John Collins]

Sorry Ralph, I wasn't having a go at you for not acknowledging my copyright, I just reacted too quickly to the fact that you had produced some material that was already available from my book. It was a minor irritation that you appeared to think that you had discovered something new, but which was old news to me. The acknowledgement I referred to was that I had already researched those facts. Again I apologise for firing from the hip!

My issues with Bill on the wiki will be explained there in a moment. Nothing to it really - just me going off half-cock again.

Please continue to research the eyewitnesses, and if it maybe that you turn up more of the material I've already published, then that may be no bad thing. Two versions of translations can sometimes throw extra light on an obscure issue.

I'm well aware that the pictures and text to MT are well-known among members of this forum and for an explanation of my reactions - again see wiki.

It's an interesting point you finish with because it reminds me that currently, any connection to Bessler within Leibniz's papers is systematically excised from any published material and you have to literally dig within the archives themselves to get at it. One man, a Pole, thoroughly combed the archives for just such material some years ago and I have a copy of all his references and it was partly those notes which enabled me to provide the many references to Leibniz's letters. Maybe other material containing references to Bessler will show up in the future so, please continue your research Ralph, and accept my apologies if I seemed to over react.

John Collins

[rlortie]

John,

Thank you for understanding, apology accepted and I also apologize. Obviously we can be more productive if we understand that research is research and cannot be biased.

To show what I mean here is a link that shows a connection between Leibniz and Fischer. Once again I point out that a lot of people carried the same common names, hard to substantiate!

Good link with a lot of cross reference that I have not got into yet!

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Jo ... von_Erlach

Appears that the two of them traveled together on a scholarship grant!

And by the way, I have ran into that elusive Johann Gottfried ------- (name omitted due to third party involvement) from Prussia again.

[tomfleet]

Hi everyone,
Could anyone point me to some place that has copies or transcriptions, in the original language, of any comments by Gravesande about the wheel (or any of the wheels), or contemporaneous accounts of Gravesande's comments about the wheels? I've been unable to find this material, despite rummaging around this site and googling. I have seen a lot of posts that quote in English or refer to things Gravesande said or was said to have said, so I feel like the document is probably right under my nose and I'm sorry to be asking.

Also: I could have sworn I read something, somewhere, about how, after Bessler smashed up his wheel that time, Gravesande or someone else came by and viewed a wreckage of wood splinters, gears and other detritus. Does this ring a bell for anyone? Maybe I just imagined it.

Thank you,
Tom

[Stewart]

Hi Tom - I've made you a member of my private forum. In there is a topic called "'sGravesande" where you'll find information, transcriptions and translations of some of 'sGravesande's writings about Bessler's wheel. Stewart

[tomfleet]

Hi Stewart, Thanks a lot, it's much appreciated. I've just been checking out Gravesande's letter and his further remarks on principles.
Tom

[Stewart]

Hi Tom, you're welcome. I should point out that the translation of the letter to Newton was not done by me (it came from Dircks' book 'Perpetuum Mobile') and it has some mistakes/omissions, such as the part I talked about in the following post:

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 0144#60144

Stewart

[Furcurequs]

I stumbled upon some drawings from the following book by Gravesande and so I tracked it down. Thought some here might be interested. The first two links are to the English translations of the two volume work. There are apparently Latin versions now available online, too.

Mathematical elements of natural philosophy, confirm'd by experiments; or, an introduction to Sir Isaac Newton's philosophy. Vol. II. Written in Latin, by William-James 'sGravesande, ... Translated into English, by J. T. Desaguliers,

Volume I:

https://archive.org/details/mathematicalelem01grav

Volume II:

https://archive.org/details/mathematicalelem02grav

Ralph mentions this book in this post in another even older thread:

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 9399#39399


I also found this:

Oeuvres philosophiques et mathématiques de Mr G. J.'s Gravesande, rassemblées et publiées par Jean Nic. Seb. Allamand, qui y a ajouté l'histoire de la vie et des écrits de l'auteur.

Google translated title:

Mathematical and philosophical works of Mr GJ's Gravesande, collected and published by John Nic. Seb. Allamand, who has added the story of the life and writings of the author.

Volume I:

http://books.google.com/books?id=7r9PAAAAcAAJ

Volume II:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Tyg_AAAAcAAJ

This seems to be the source quoted by Dircks in his Perpetuum Mobile: Or, Search for Self-motive Powerand from which he got Gravesande's letter to Newton and also his "Remarks touching Perpetual Motion." There seem to be other references to Orffyereus beyond these two things also, but well, I don't really read French.