"Energy cannot be created or destroyed..."

[Sean]

I was driving down the road, thinking about perpetual motion.

Then I thought - if perpetual motion exists - if you can create a device that creates energy, does that mean you could create a device that destroys energy? Can you make a device that is like... perpetual absorption?

Not sure why you would want to do that. It just seems that if it's possible to create energy out of nowhere, it should be possible to destroy energy into nothingness.

Just a thought.

~Sean

[wheelmaster]

Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only change form.

Besslers wheel did not create energy. It changed gravity into a workable energy source.

Think about a waterwheel. It uses the force of falling water to turn the wheel and apply that force to do work.

[ovyyus]

Think about a waterwheel. It uses the force of falling water to turn the wheel and apply that force to do work.

I think it's more accurate to say that a water wheel uses the force of LIFTED water to turn the wheel. The real work is derived from whatever lifted the water in the first place. Gravity is not a primary energy source - just like a spring isn't a primary energy source. Therefore, the function of Bessler's wheel must have another explanation.

[LustInBlack]

... And I say that energy can be created since it HAS been created ..

[jupter]

if it moves it has energy !!! ?

[LustInBlack]

Relatively not.

[DrWhat]

We are using gravity in a repetitive way. Not creating or destroying energy.

[scott]

... And I say that energy can be created since it HAS been created ..

LIB raises an interesting point here.

It is easy enough to say energy cannot be created or destroyed, and most of us agree on that as far as PM goes.

But if energy exists at all then didn't it have to be created at some point?

For me the conservation law actually raises more questions than it answers.

-Scott

[DrWhat]

I think Scott that unintentionally you are leading to a discussion about a higher power or basically about something or someone that is needed to create something else.
It appears more and more that all matter is made of energy as its building block.
Where does this energy come from? Where did the big bang emerge from. My theory (perhaps a crazy one) is that one dimension leaked via "holes" into this dimension and massive amounts of energy were forced into this dimension everywhere at once. Everywhere at once because HERE and THERE did not exist prior to the energy release. Once a point of reference formed (here we go again with the point of reference idea) then energy and then matter clumped together due to gravity. Gravity is derived directly from this energy.
So the question still is where did this energy come from? I have the best answer: who knows!

[John Collins]

The energy for a water wheel uses water that had to be lifted first, yes, but we can keep tracing the origin of that energy back for ever. If the water fell as rain then convection and the action of the sun on the sea lifted the water to allow it to fall as rain. The sun emits heat but that heat is energy which was not only created in the sun but was rather the end of a previous series of actions and reactions which produced the sun. So the trail of energy can be followed back to the first big bang ( whatever theory you hold to). That is where the ultimate energy source was created and doubtless scientists will tell you that big bang was the result of a previous energy reaction.

I have always held to the idea that we only need to look at the here and now of energy action. Yes, water driving a water wheel has to be lifted first but that doesn't stop us making use of it as it falls. Wind is generated by other atmospheric actions but we can use the results to drive windmills. Gravity is obviously the result of other distant actions but we can make use of it too, in my opinion.

The key to understanding is, I believe, looking at the matter as a local effect and focussing on that and not where or how the energy source came to be available - even though that is interesting to us it does not effect the results we wish to obtain.

John Collins

[LustInBlack]

John,

What you say is true, but I think there is a process that creates that energy .. Maybe it's useable on a local scale ..

Or maybe it's just a massive system .

Or maybe Bessler found it ?!


Too much maybe .. so little answers..

[wheelmaster]

LustInBlack

What you say is true, but I think there is a process that creates that energy .. Maybe it's useable on a local scale ..

E=MC2

[jim_mich]

It seems that everyone searches for a way to use gravity to turn a wheel. But gravity is a conservative force and science says that it cannot be harnessed to turn a wheel. In order for gravity to turn a wheel weights must be forced higher. Only then can a wheel be turned by gravity. So we need to look for a force (other than gravity) that is capable of moving weights higher. If we eliminate such improbable things as windup springs, hidden air supply, or thermal gradients then we are left with only inertial momentum.

Maybe we should listen to what Bessler had to say concerning where the energy came from to turn his wheels?

He (Bessler) describes how he began to build a new wheel, making it larger than the others and explains that the 'inward structure of the wheel is of a nature according to the laws of perpetual motion, so arranged that certain disposed weights once in rotation, gain force from their own swinging, and must continue their movement as long as their structure does not lose its position and arrangement. Unlike all other automata, such as clocks or springs or other hanging weights which require winding up or whose duration depends on the chain which attaches them, on the contrary these weights are the essential parts and constitute perpetual motion itself; as from them is received the universal movement which they must exercise so long as they remain out of the centre of gravity; and when they come to placed together, so arranged that they can never obtain equilibrium, or the punctum quietus which they unceasingly seek in their wondrous speedy flight, one or another of them must apply its weight vertically to the axis, which in its turn will also move'

It seems that Bessler said his weights gain force from their own swinging. How can a weight gain force from swinging? What happens when a weight swings? Swinging means traveling in an arc. When a weight travels in an arc it produces centripetal force. If a weight swings twice as fast the force increases four times as strong. In other words the weights gain force from their own swinging! This is where the energy comes from to turn a PM wheel. Gravity plays only a secondary role! It was not gravity that turned Bessler's wheels; it was a constant changing of force of swinging weights. So the driving force of Bessler's wheels does not come directly from gravity, just like the driving force of a water wheel does not come directly from gravity. Bessler's weights and water for the wheel are both lifted in some manner so that gravity can turn the wheels.

Modern science is correct; you cannot make a gravity powered PM wheel because of how gravity works. A working PM wheel must gain its energy in some other way. The out-of-balance is only the final step. First learn how to make weights gain energy from their own swinging.

[Mikhail]

Who wants to buy a wheel, which creates energy??

Help to sell a wheel please.

[Bessler007]

I do. Put me down for 10 of them.

Who wants to try to cash this check?


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