Maschinen Tractate Twin pumps

[F.Nepure]

Greetings to all,
I'm new here & would like to put forward some ideas stemming from the Maschinen Tractate drawings.
If it's ground that's already been covered then you can say "Yeah, we know all about that....don't bore us with it!"
Firstly the steadyweight/pendulum shown in MT13, would appear to be missing from MT15 (i.e. it's supposed operation would require a similar steadyweight to lift the arms)
Next up M21 and M23, again, the ramp lifting weights shown in MT23 is missing from MT21.
MT47 - the upside down number. If we take a look either side of the upside down 47, there are 2 oddities (circles with open and closed levers or threads) which may well refer to MT61.
If we position these over the centre of MT61 (the right way up), it is suggesting that we rotate MT61 through 90 degrees.
When we do this the supposed operation of MT61 becomes clear (water shifted around by expanding/contracting air bellows).
All this is great! - but it doesn't really point to any working design.

The odder drawings, the ones that have no obvious function are what interest me most - MT139 & 140 seem to suggest that children's toys are making the noise.
Along with a line in one of his poems 'children play ...... loud heavy cudgels'. Schniebekeulchen is an odd one too,
Schnibelkuchen - 'potato fritter'. Keulen - 'cudgel/club' all very odd.
By adding weights that made banging noises, he would instantly divert anyone from the true workings of the machine.

So i've tried to examine things in the drawings that are out of place, that serve no function.
The one's you look at & think 'what the hell is that about'.
MT50, and MT110 - 113 all show enclosed cylinders, in the centre of their clock-like cases. MT40 & 42 also have this cylinder, in different shapes and positions.
MT87 & MT89 show water displacing cylinders (toilet cistern fashion).
I often wonder if Bessler made these drawings specifically to create insanity in anyone who stares at them for too long....?
Because multiple meanings, and levels of meaning can be extracted from them.
MT56 - MT80 all give references to air shifting or air displacement.
MT76 - MT90 The twin water pump drawings, sometimes with air bellows also attached.
My attention is also grabbed by the drawings that require water to be added or show the wrong level of water.
So water displacement seems to be a major theme.
Allied to the balanced twin pump idea, this would all seem to suggest a pair of displacing pumps inside the wheel.
Which are balanced against each other, either by their own weight (greater than equivelant volume of water), or by the water's displacing force.
The goal being that the displacing cylinders can rock backwards and forwards, causing the water level to rise and fall alternately in each pump.
But maintaining a balanced system.
Many of the MT drawings show the water wheel type rim for no apparent reason, often driven by air or water.
If the machine used an inverted water-containing rim as shown in MT107, then as the water level fell, water would remain in one side of the rim, and not the other
All just speculation.
But as they say, you gotta speculate to accumulate....
I'd be interested to know if anyone else has derrived similar conclusions from the drawings, or built a model along similar themes before i start.
So someone can say "No - that ain't working son".
I have some diagrams i can post if anyone is interested, but will need some advice on how to embed/add them.
Good luck to all in your machine-dreaming and building,

F.Nepure

[jim_mich]

Welcome F.Nepure!

Pictures are limited as to size. Use GIF or PNG type images for line drawings such as MSPaint and JPG type images for photo type pictures. Don't make the pictures too big. Anything over 100Kb is probably too big. When you have the pictures(s) ready then you can post and add the picture by clicking "Click to Add Attachment". Just fill in the name of the picture file (or use browse). Add a comment if you wish. It will appear with the picture. If you want to add more than one picture then click the "Add Attachment" button next to the file comment box. Then click preview or submit. If you screw up you can (for a limited time, I think 1 day) edit your post to make corrections.

[F.Nepure]

Balanced MT displacement pump drawings for perusal and condemnation.

[evgwheel]

F.Nepure
Wow…Your first post must have been years in the making. Wow… and welcome.

[AB Hammer]

F.Nepure

Welcome to the forum. I have a question about your pictures. How are they suppose to spin with a shaft through the top and still hold liquid?

[Stewart]

Hi F.Nepure

Welcome to the forum. I have a couple of comments:

MT47 - the upside down number. If we take a look either side of the upside down 47, there are 2 oddities (circles with open and closed levers or threads) which may well refer to MT61.

Are you referring to the torsion springs that return the ball chutes to a horizontal position? If so...

If we position these over the centre of MT61 (the right way up), it is suggesting that we rotate MT61 through 90 degrees.
When we do this the supposed operation of MT61 becomes clear (water shifted around by expanding/contracting air bellows).

MT61 already has torsion springs for assisting in the closing of the bellows - where exactly are you suggesting you place further springs and how does that help? I do agree that wherever there are bellows, even if the design is shown using air, we should consider how the design might function with water also. Perpetual motion machine designs with bellows containing water or mercury were a common theme before and during Bessler's time.

MT50, and MT110 - 113 all show enclosed cylinders, in the centre of their clock-like cases. MT40 & 42 also have this cylinder, in different shapes and positions.

MT50, MT110 & MT111 certainly have internal pieces/blocks to stop the chain collapsing inwards - but MT112 and MT113 don't seem to have one. MT40 & MT42 don't have enclosed cylinders but have two rods which pass through the axle and connect the two weights.

It's nice to see someone new studying MT and sharing their thoughts - good luck with your research and experiments.

All the best
Stewart

[F.Nepure]

Thanks to Jim_mich for the advice on posting pictures.

To answer AB Hammer's query, the pic just gives a visual representation of the theory of balanced displacing cylinders. And is not meant as anything more, so it may seem odd. It's meant as a different way of looking at the twin pumps that bessler drew so many times. His working wheels were obviously far different in design, but the twin pumps must have been a factor in that design, and so he may well have drawn them as symbolic representation of the theory behind the wheel's operation.
I like the fact that there are so many different ideas about Bessler's wheel floating around. Weights, water, orfyrean bearings etc... Makes life more interesting i suppose, would be pretty boring if we all shared the same thoughts.
On to Stewart's queries (How is Devon? I used to live there)
My thought is that the shape of the springs and the upside down number in MT47 give a hint to rotating MT61 through 90 degrees to better understand it's supposed function - not that they add in any way to the function of MT61, but just that it is an oddity, and that any oddities in these drawings probably have some explanation - or maybe he's just messing with our brains... This is a tenuous link, and could well be the combined result of staring at a drawing for too long and drinking too much coffee. Have a look at the attached drawing and please make your own conclusions.
Back to MT40/42 - My Personal inclings are that the some of the drawings are in a way symbolic, in that the shapes that are described by the apparent mechanism create another shape that can be seen if the supposed operating mechanism is ignored - like a cylinder or container. But again, could be a function of my brain seeing cylinders & water displacing devices in everything. On closer inspection i do note that MT112 & 113 do note include inner rectangles, but that the outside of MT112 is very container-like. And that the unnecesary clock like structure at the top of MT111 shows a circle inside another circle.
It seems that many, many ideas and concepts can be taken from these drawings, and so i am guilty of seeing what my brain has interpreted from them. And this can be freely disputed by all. Thanks for your comments.

[Jon J Hutton]

Here is a question to John C. or any one who has seen the original MTs. Is the number 47 written by bessler or is it written by another. Are there two 47s one inverted in the original picture. Good Eye F. Nepure....I have to admit I never noticed the upside 47 before. Bessler did say that friction would kill this wheel but, it is really odd that there are two 47s.

JJH

Edit....Bessler never said friction would kill this machine he said he would leave it up to the wise to bring to light the problem.

[ovyyus]

Jon, a closeup of the 47's in Bessler's original MT47...

[Jon J Hutton]

Thanks Ovyyus........Any one have an idea on why 47 is upside down.

JJH

[John Collins]

Bill discovered this unusual feature and we had some discussion about it a while back but I can't remember if we reached any conclusions about it. It must have been carved in the original woodcut to appear on the page, unless he initially printed from it and then overprinted in the reverse direction to produce the two images.

JC

[F.Nepure]

Thanks for your comments,
The MT47 thing was an aside to my eccentric theory on a pair of balanced displacing pumps. I don't really think there is anything extra to be gleaned from MT47 or MT61.
F.Nepure

[rlortie]

If you flip MT 47 180, you will note that it would not take much modification to make it run in the opposite direction. I know this is "reaching" but maybe the mirrored image of "47" holds a clue to the bi-directional mechanism?

Ralph

[axel]

MT47 4 + 7 = 11 or MT11

There's a connection to MT11.

A doubling.

A counterpoise.

[Jon J Hutton]

This topic is the closest I could find to water power...something that I have been working on for quite a while.

Before I start this long introduction I would like to find out if there is any one or way that we might know when mt 93 and 94 was written.

Perhaps John or Stewart could shed some light on the subject. I really do have a reason for asking which I will talk about in the next post if someone has an idea on the dates.

JJH