Springs

[gapite]

OK, so it has been said that the wheels used springs, but what kind of springs?

There are a few kinds:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_(device)

I guess it depends upon what you see the design of the wheel as being like as to what type of spring would have been used.

To this end, and thinking of what would have been likely at that time, I would suggest that he used simple leaf springs as opposed to wound compression or extension springs.

Interested in hearing other's opinions of what was used and why.


Tim.

[Clarkie]

Yup, thats what I think.

Pete.

[jim_mich]

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... ring#45090
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... ring#46144
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... ring#46150
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... ring#46192
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... ring#46440
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... ring#46732

[Fletcher]

Hi Tim .. I think the type of spring depends entirely on the job they have to do - almost any spring will do to pull or push something, but mostly, it depends on the available space for it to operate unobstructed in, so some space saving ones are preferable to others.

The second consideration is how far something has to move & then come back to its original position again - if it just a very short distance [an inch or two] then it doesn't matter too much what type you use & the deflection of the spring is the same as the distance that something is moved.

But, if for example, you are displacing weights to give overbalance in a wheel that requires ever increasing displacement distance to give greater asymmetric torque [which converts to Watts power output] & you are using the springs for restorative purposes, then you will probably run out of spring deflection before you permanently damage the spring [elastic ability] - in that case you would use pulleys & ropes to effectively gear the spring down so that it deflected a lesser distance than the weight was ultimately shifted - in that scenario probably leaf or coil springs would be most suitable - something to possibly keep in mind is that Bessler [in AP] talked about how a 'bow twangs' which may be suggestive of a leaf type spring, or it could be something entirely different, but there is no argument that a bow is a type of leaf spring in action.

[wheelrite]

maybe we can interpret besslers 'driver' as a spring that has to be pre-loaded before the wheel will operate, and ties with the report of him being seen to 'cock' a spring after reloading the weights.
regards
jon

[Fletcher]

OR .. it wasn't the 'driver' of the wheel i.e. after taking out the weights to translocate the bi-directional wheel [as part of the test] he had to put them back in again - putting them back in meant positioning them onto/into a favourable overbalance path - since this was the bi-directional wheel then for it to be stationary [balanced] until given a push then possibly two internal opposing paths & structures had to be counterbalanced so it could stand still.

Perhaps the sound heard & assumed to be a 'slip' was in fact Bessler reattaching a spring to a latched weight after stretching or tensioning the spring first - N.B. when you let it go it tends to snap back until seated, especially if a heavy duty spring with plenty of force or if you have to work hard to stretch it, control it & guide it precisely into its connection.

[ovyyus]

From Collins' book, PMAAMS:

...When he put the wheel onto another support and reinstalled the weights in their previous positions, he pushed down on an iron spring that gave a loud noise as it expanded upwards... - Christian Wolff, letter to Leibniz, examination of Merseburg wheel, 19th December, 1715.

[Fletcher]

I stand corrected, no 'slip' - it was deliberate !

< and reinstalled the weights in their previous positions >

[Clarkie]

Springs will do three things, compression, tension and deformation.

Pete.

[bluesgtr44]

Hey Fletch....

OR .. it wasn't the 'driver' of the wheel i.e. after taking out the weights to translocate the bi-directional wheel [as part of the test] he had to put them back in again - putting them back in meant positioning them onto/into a favourable overbalance path - since this was the bi-directional wheel then for it to be stationary [balanced] until given a push then possibly two internal opposing paths & structures had to be counterbalanced so it could stand still.

Perhaps the sound heard & assumed to be a 'slip' was in fact Bessler reattaching a spring to a latched weight after stretching or tensioning the spring first - N.B. when you let it go it tends to snap back until seated, especially if a heavy duty spring with plenty of force or if you have to work hard to stretch it, control it & guide it precisely into its connection.

I agree with the opposing paths and that they balance and this is how they would stand still. One would create the off-balance and the other would assume a neutral position that would balance and turn with the wheel. There are so many scenarios that we can come up with as to how the weight placement could have taken place....pulling up on a spring to reattach the weight....pushing down on the spring and reinstalling the weight...regardless, it still comes down to an arrangement that will allow the spring to compensate, on it's own or with some other mechanical means, and flow with a fluid acceleration rate and then maintain a maximum rate of velocity for.....a really long time!

If you have WM2D, you can do some simple tests with this and see what I am talking about. Come up with a spring induced type of arrangement and then just attach the motor function to it and watch it. I was astounded at the effect with just going from 0-10 rpm's and how my constant spring tension was doing a very good job at staying constant while the rest of the arrangement was doing anything BUT maintaining any constant values.

Basically, I think if springs are used....I agree with Fletch, that they are probably not the drivers.....but the maintainers. They may...may...have the ability to maintain a constant pressure applied to one side of the wheel. If we have a constant pressure it can allow us to manipulate something...say a weight along the perimeter....and then the "onus" is back on gravity (so to speak), and not on the spring!

I haven't had any real success in this endeavor and WM2D is a real booger when the springs get to be a bit much. I have one test that took me about 6-7 hrs. for it to process about 3/8 of a rotation. This has slowed me down considerably! I have called this approach the "springring" contraption. From what I have seen so far, the ring needs to be somewhat variable....i.e., a couple of different spring tensions applied at differing points that are flexible. One would be applied at the joints of the ring and the other would be at a point where they could actually slide in or out via a slotted joint of some sort. Now, the spring in the slotted joint would be applying itself to push out and extend the ring fully....when inserted, the ring....caught between to heavy entities, compresses and you now have an applied force. I have had no success drafting this type of "springring" in WM2D...this is the one I have to try and build.

On a side note, as far as latches go....it would seem that a catch/release type of latching system would be more troublesome than say a simple one way latch that prevents movement in a certain direction. I ask this because there may be something in this I am missing and hopefully someone can straighten me out.


Steve

[Clarkie]

IMO a catch/release latch, plus a timing device, is needed to control the prime mover.

Pete.

[Fletcher]

Hi Steve .. the reason I believe that latches were required to hold weights on their overbalance path until ready to come closer to the axle [after their torque has been used to rotate the wheel] is simply to do with the premiss of springs also being required to restore the weights to a closer orbit on the ascending side of the wheel - as a side note, the Kassell wheel was about 12 foot diameter which meant an axle height of at least 6 ft above the ground [plus wheel clearance] - I know that there were raised platforms for the men to walk along to translocate the wheel [carrying it on their shoulders] but either way it makes sense that Bessler [being less than 6 ft] could only take out & replace the weights in a lower quadrant of the wheel - that would fit well with my springs are a restorative force hypothesis if you believe the wheel was an ordinary overbalanced wheel of which we are very familiar !

This would mean that the Prime Mover had to move the weights & tension the spring at the same time !

[AB Hammer]

Fletcher

Bessler made it clear that they where not needed for the wheel to work, but I do believe the springs made it work more smoothly.

[Fletcher]

From memory Alan I think he said that springs were used but not in the way his detractors thought N.B. IINM, he was referring to Wagner & Co. who thought it must be a spring wound wheel similar to a wind up clock.

I'm sure someone will have the relevant quote, haven't got time to search it right now ?

I believe what you have said above echos JC's thoughts on the possible use & importance of springs in Bessler's wheels & that may be where you remember it from ?!

My appologies if I am wrong.

[John Collins]

Alan wrote

Bessler made it clear that they where not needed for the wheel to work, but I do believe the springs made it work more smoothly.

Yes that's my opinion too.

JC