Just for the fun of it..... What would you do if your design worked!

[Mak#1]

One thing history has taught us is that one cannot stand in the way of progress, you might as well stand in front of a battle tank going 50 mph. Once the genie is out of the bottle , the information will spread across the planet with awesome speed, china will be mass producing wheels while your still waiting for your patent protection.

[DrWhat]

True, the inventor should expect to lose a large portion of control across the world. But we need to ask ourselves what is the motivation to develop the wheel? If it is soley to make money then your motivation is wrong. Sure, you should expect a substantial income as the inventor, deserve the income. Setting up the patent and then a company and maintaining contol in the west is important.

But the motivation should be to try and preserve at least some of this crumbling planet for future generations. A bessler wheel would do that. Cars finally all become electric, factories run on free energy as do households, oil lasts another 300 years as it's primary use will be to fabricate plastics etc rather than fuel.

The cost of solar cells is still too high. By the time you pay them off and start saving it will be time to replace them.

The Bessler wheel will be low cost once mass production occurs.

[Fletcher]

I think there is sometimes the assumption that if the same principle as Bessler's is found that the work output for size can be dramatically improved - I would suggest that Bessler was no slug & even if you make some allowances for better materials & improved technology today you still have to accept that his wheels were big & cumbersome for a relatively small amount of capacity to do work - it is likely imo that although the output could probably be improved upon I don't think it would be by a factor of 10 or even 3, else Bessler would have done so over his many years of building, thinking & improving his designs.

If the utility of a Bessler type wheel is no better than wind or solar or tidal etc then it will become an interesting & possibly a viable alternative [as the others] but not likely to shake the world down to its boots - it's major benefit would be that like solar & wind it could be used anywhere you own or control the land it sits on & doesn't rely on crown [community] ownership of resources [where you pay a rental, after applying for resource consent] like river & lake beds & indeed terra firma below the mean high water line, as in tidal.

[Jim Williams]

I was only suggesting patent application if a profit was desired. If not known, please note the application for an American patent must also be within that one year of an application for a foreign patent, six months for a design patent or the patent will be denied. If my motivation included profit I would opt for an international patent, which is recognized by 124 countries as of 2004.

Mak is right. I think it would be a contest between the news spreading like wildfire and countries passing brand new laws keeping the invention secret for security reasons. I'd wait to allow security laws to be passed myself before applying for a patent. A working Bessler's wheel would make the relative power of nuclear weapons a joke by its impact.

[Fletcher]

Well, obviously I'd have to disagree with you Jim about comparing a Bessler type gravity wheel's impact to the energy market to that of the advent of nuclear weapons to the military firepower - its greatest impact would be for humanitarian uses, by people & countries not really able to afford any other alternative, & of course it goes round & round 24/7 for a one-off cost.

There are other alternatives or compromises if you prefer, that allow the inventor to be fairly rewarded & have some altruistic benefit as well - but I think if someone were to patent their idea then there's not much point in only covering the American market - an international patent would make better sense in this regard - in that case once a working POP wheel was built you would probably need to gather around you a group of some sort to work thru & scope the issues & provide the intellectual & capital muscle you will need to not loose control of your plan - what better place to start than by recruiting individual members form this forum in each western country protected by the patent treaty - of course there will be some you'd like on board who could contribute to the replication & development of the POP into something more marketable & reliable & saleable, but they may not be able or willing to contribute financially, as that involves some risk - but I don't think it should be the inventors sole risk to fund international patents etc while others come along for the ride & the rewards - some other members would have a financial backing role to play but may not be able to contribute to the development of the idea significantly - horses for courses, they would be hard choices to have to make for sure & somebody's not going to be happy.

The other alternative is to contact a major international investment company thru an intermediatory they & you trust - this person would have to know how the wheel worked so he could put his hand on their heart & say its the real-deal, & of course they have to have clout & integrity with the investment company - while writing up the agreement you [the inventor] would have to come up with your bottom lines i.e. license the technology, not stop individuals from building [commercial reward only], etc - whatever you felt was appropriate for your technology - & of course you would want a substantial upfront payment & a royalty on licensing etc, plus a penalty clause for non-production & a right to take back ownership of your technology if nothing is constructively done with it within a certain time period, & non disclosure etc.

The other alternative is to once again [thru a well known intermediatory] approach your own government on a similar basis to the above - opposition parties in waiting are particularly good at recognizing jaw dropping opportunities that could make them look very forward thinking where ultimately your country becomes a world leader in manufacturing & exporting, job & wealth creation from this technology, for your countrymen.

There are other alternatives - the main thing is to clearly identify your goals & the engines potential market & how much altruistic compromise you will insist on, if at all.

Edit : P.S. you could just give it away using the power of the internet & hope that after the fanfare dies down that someone remembers to financially reward you somehow.

Or, you could approach the likes of Dean Carmen or the Gates foundation, or Orion, Randy etc etc - write a book, go on public speaking tours etc, if you're not the shy & retiring type.

Then there is the potential impact of the hot topic now - climate change - what if your wheel was a thermal wheel as Bill suggests is a possibility, that actually used ambient thermal energy to do work [like a stirling engine] so had a capacity to mitigate global warming - you just might have a complete political tiger by the tail & you'd be in for a wild ride.

Inventing the wheel may seem in retrospect the easy bit.

[Mak#1]

And there is also another side to the coin, what if as in the past, with coal and steam, gasoline and the automobile, nuclear energy (spent fuel waste). We get the wheel finally to rotate under its own power, people all over the world have free energy, It gets hot they cool down, it gets cold they warm up. In fact in the summer they leave for work turn the thermostat down to 65 and leave it. Heck man its free let it run! Same thing in winter, I dont want to come home to a cold house, turn that sucker way up! you see where Im going with this? Maybe we are going from the frying pan right into the fire, as in excess heat lots of it. Just my 2 cents hope Im wrong.

[DrWhat]

The reality is that as soon as the provisional is applied for, then the full international patents should be applied for. This provides precendence worldwide, and then spreads the patent applications over many countries. Difficult for one govt to control or suppress. Also gives a bit more confidence in disclosing the invention publicly sooner than later.

Unfortunately full patents take a while to process in other countries, but some countries are grouped together.

Fletcher, I haven't thought about this much, but I like your idea of other selected BesslerWheel members financially contributing to the patents in their own countries. The question then becomes how do the co contributers get rewarded financially for their outlay?

These are just quick thoughts up for discussion.

Setting up separate companies in each country could be the way to go with different (internal company)share portions allocated to firstly the main inventor, and less to the other financial co contributors. This setting up of various companies in a good way increases the complexity of the distribution of the invention and also in a good way prevents one entity or government regulating the whole thing. Yet the inventor maintains control and ownership.

I would avoid putting the companies on the share market as market volatility could impact on the product and you would in some ways lose control.

[daxwc]

I am with Fletcher that the wheel will not have a huge impact. It will take 10 acres of wheels to power your house... years of energy to get back from your labour, material and up keep. Unless it can made huge, it will be more like poor wind power. I would love to be made wrong and every bit helps rather the hydrocarbons.

If it does start to have a huge impact on the economy governments will license it and have gravity taxes, registration, insurance, mandatory safety courses and operators license. That is if a squirrel somewhere does not accidently get injured then....

[jim_mich]

I don't think it would take ten acres to power a house. I have one wheel estimate that uses a 12 foot wheel about 4-1/2 feet thick with about 5000 Lbs of weight plus the wheel structure of maybe 800 pounds. Then add a 200 Lb generator and you have a 3 ton power plant. Such a wheel could be placed in a two story room half below ground and half above ground extending maybe 6 to 8 feet behind a garage. It would put out 10 to 12 Horsepower continuously which I estimate would be enough to supply an average household with all of its energy needs including recharging an electric commuter car each day.

Energy farms could be out of sight below ground. Excavate a big hole. Build a power plant building. Then cover the whole building over with the excavated dirt. Landscape the mound into a park with trees and flowers or use it for farm land.

[FunWithGravity]

@jim

Wow, thats quit interesting, i am amazed at the LOW hp that you predict for thr machine. I would be very interested in your calculation.

But if its correct i am also amazed at the cost of the structure you predict, the cost of 6K pounds of weight at todays steel costs makes that one expensive porposition, then add your going labour rate for skilled labour of between 60-90/hr. Plust the cost of this substructure to house it.

Based on your calcultions of size and weight i can say that it would run about 15K if you did everything yourself(diging the hole and welding and building the structure) up to at least 30K if you had it installed by anyone else. Then add in the cost of the machine if its not FREE released.

I avg 200/month elec. at that rate it would cost me 12 years to recoup my outlay, And the average time a person spends in any one house equals out to 7 years. Yes it would ad resale(maybe) value to the home.

Now if you can then feed back some power into the grid and get paid, and if no annual maintenance is required and you do have the electic car it may make sense.

I was realy hoping to make them portable units that would fit into sheds that couls be moved with the homeowner and or sold to another person. This way you could buy the size you needed in KW. Now i don't mean sheds in your typical sense, but moveable steel structures. Almost the same way you would buy an emergency generator now.

Anyway, jim if you would share your isight into the HP rating it would be greatly appreciated. Or how about torque instead if you like.


Also why does it have to run a generator, why can't the wheel be the armature of a larger low friction genterator. Like those used on pedal bikes to power strobes. Since the energy is free it doesn't have to be constant high output. Low current could charge banks of batteries 24 hours a day for the short high output needs.


JMHO
Dave

[jim_mich]

Of course a lot of assumptions were needed to arrive at my calculated results. That particular wheel used twenty 50 Lb weights and twenty 200 Lb weights, thus a total of 5000 Lb. The weights were assumed to be cast concrete because it is much cheaper than any metal. I thought of using plastic containers of water for the weights but that would make the wheel more than twice as thick, but it brings the cost down substantially. Using steel for weights reduces the wheel thickness from about 4-1/2 feet to about 1-1/2 feet.

The center of mass of the offset weights averaged about 2.81 inches. The weights move almost a foot in and out. The wheel speed was assumed to be 45 RPM. I calculated that this particular wheel needed a minimum speed of about 30 RPM in order to develop enough CF to start turning on its own. I've since figured out how to make the wheels always balanced so that they will start when given just a small push. But then I no longer have any torque numbers since the newer style wheels drive by way of impact. And impact calculations are much more difficult to do.

Yes the wheel itself can be part of the generator. You could probably fasten magnets to the wheel rim and let them pass by stationary coils.If the wheel turned at a constant speed then you could calculate how far apart to place magnets in order to produce 60 Hz or 50 Hz.

I figure heating and cooling the home could be by mechanical connection to a heat pump. Or just have the wheel drive paddles that stir water in climates that don't require cooling.

Of course these are all just computer calculations. Any proof of principle must be from building a wheel.

[FunWithGravity]

Thank you Jim
Dave

[Jim Williams]

I wasn't thrilled with my post about nuclear weapons either. I think I'm just got too much fear about the success of a wheel, like the differences between nuclear power and nuclear weapons. I worry about such things as spiralling deflation destroying countries and such. Perhaps you are right and the actual cost per Kwh output wouldn't be that different than other free energy fuels such as solar and hydropower. Or at least I can hope.

I mentioned the year available for applying for an American patent after publication to stress patent protection was available and not to think of that time as a grace period in which to apply. The Patent Office takes seriously diligence in completing the invetion and making efforts towards reduction to practice. I note also USPTO already has a class/subclass for perpetual motion making it clear that an additional law would need be passed, such as with nuclear weapons, to prevent the Patent Office's publication of such an invention along with, hopefully, media publicatiton to the World.

I think that working model lighting a light bulb on the evening news is still the best way to go before worrying about patent rights. There is always the book. It's just the nature of the invention I think it should be free to the world.

[Alexioco]

If my wheel worked I would leave it in my room, go on holiday for a week, then come back to see if it has been going all that time, then if it was I would keep it in my room until I figure out what to do....

[Fletcher]

Hey Damian .. I think many of us would like the idea of sharing the success with other members here who have also toiled away & kept this community going - but like I said, as far as I can see there is no easy way to divvy things up [responsibilities & possible rewards] that wouldn't have many noses out of joint.

If you start a company & ask for capital then quite a few here would see that as some sort of elaborate long con in the making - so probably someone trusted by the group would need to see the POP to verify that its for real - he would probably need full accesss to the machine - then there might be unwanted attention & publicity for the inventor that could happen when the appointed man reported back to the forum his findings & opinions about authenticity etc - very hard to keep a low key lid on things & be fair to everyone at the same time - probably better imo to start a small company or just an informal group, invite a few people on board to R & D it & scope things, to establish its likely potential [assuming you haven't done this already] & let things evolve from there - if you want the patent protection then probably this nucleus or founding group should contribute both financially & intellectually, if the inventor doesn't have the means at his disposal which is more than likely.

There may well be other models out there that are suitable & meet the inventors objectives ? Personally I don't spend too much time thinking about such things but would if I had a working wheel [what's the boy scout motto "be prepared"] but I decided to join in with the flavour of the thread "just for the fun of it etc ".