Bessler morality in question

[Quartz]

All quotations are from John Collins book Apologia Poetica



You know, you have to wonder why Bessler would give any clues at all about his wheels, especially if you didn’t want any one to figure out the principal, so why would he risk it, knowing his enemies were well versed in the area of mechanics and mathematics. I know he didn’t want to give it away, here Bessler tell his enemies,

“You'd like me to reveal the secret to you for nothing, wouldn't you? For nothing- as free as the air - an outright present with not a penny paid! What a miserly wretch you would then become, provoking God himself to anger! No, no – that wouldn’t be the way to do things, we must think of better arrangements.�

Indeed, Clearly the man didn’t want to give his principal away. So why would he give any clues at all? Was he so sure no one would figure it out? Bessler says,

"You'll soon find, you splendid mechanics, that this is a nut you can't crack!�

How could Bessler be so sure? I think the clues Bessler spoon feeds his enemies are nothing more than decoys and are only meant to distract from the real workings of his wheel, this is not far fetched and is well within the realm of his character as Bessler says,

“They got no word of truth from me. I got to be very good at hiding the truth�

That alone is enough to cause one to pauses, thought I believe Bessler did have a genuine mobile, as there are plenty of witnesses that could attests to this at the time, my problem is whether there’s any truth to the clues at all, and so I must bring into light the man’s morality. It would seem in Bessler’s; quest for knowledge deception and the using of people wasn’t above him and in his own words,

“Though I don't like admitting it, I’d often resort to artifice, such as pretending I could
Hardly count up to three! Such an attitude often stood me in good stead, and I managed to exploit the skills and knowledge of many great craftsmen�.

Bessler doesn’t like admitting it because he was doing it with the intent of deception. He would also hatch plans in meeting people under false pretences and here he says,


“Now at Dresden I got to hear about a craftsman that I felt I had to get to know. So I devised a plan to bring it about. I met one of the craftsman's apprentices, who was from Sorau and was called Sigismund, and put him in the picture over a few glasses of wine, which I treated him to. Over the next few nights we worked out the details in my room. He passed me off - I swear it - as a carpenter�.

As a result he was able to procure a job working for the craftsman and goes on to say,

“I went to the craftsman, who received me in a kindly fashion, and put me to work, without ceremony, among his workers. I quickly got used to it all, and was soon making window-frames etc., which mostly turned out very well. But I didn't rush things, because I liked to take the opportunity to look in on my master's private room, close by the workshop, whenever I could. However I found little of interest there that I thought I would be able to make use of in any way, and soon lost interest in the place. Within a few days, I began to desire freedom again. I took fair account of the situation, said my farewells and went out into the world again�.

Bessler didn’t even have respect for the mans privacy as he was sneaking about the private room and when he didn’t find anything of use he would leave as quick as he came, in one door and out the other. :) Cleary you have to question the morality of besslers’ behavior. Look I don’t want to put any more of john collins’ book here but I can assure you there are more examples of this kind of behavior I would suggest you buy John collins’ Book Apologia Poetica. The whole point of this is to believe whether or not his clues have any truth to them or whether the point of them were to serve as confusion or distract from the real truth.


Ken

[John Collins]

I agree with you Ken, Bessler had double standards with regard to personal morality. His freely admitted duplicity in his early years is a kind of boasting- 'see how clever I am!'

However when it came to his wheel he couldn't resist giving out tidbits of information disguised so that it would be misunderstood. A case in point is his words which went "a great craftsman would be that man who can 'lightly' cause a heavy weight to fly upwards! Who can make a pound-weight rise as 4 ounces fall, or 4 pounds rise as 16 ounces fall. If he can sort that out, the motion will perpetuate itself. But if he can't, then his hard work shall be all in vain." This a perfect example as it has so many interpretations.

I don't believe that he ever told a direct lie about the workings of his wheel but he certainly misled in a number of ways. He made arrangements to leave sufficient clues which could be deciphered after his death to prove that he was genuine. To hide them from even the closest examination during his lifetime, they were extremely well hidden and are still difficult to discern even now. I have made some progress in finding them and even deciphering some. Yet I am still unable to reconstruct a working one even though I have some advantage in knowing some sparse details.

JC

[barksalot]

I do not think Bessler worried about his enemies finding the secret because they did not believe it to be real.

They dismissed both his words and his wheel and were only concerned with proving it a fake.

Mike

[Quartz]

Mike

excerpt from John Collin’s book Apologia Poetica

"But the enemy became jealous, and sought to steal the secret off
me".


Ken

[Stewart]

“I went to the craftsman, who received me in a kindly fashion, and put me to work, without ceremony, among his workers. I quickly got used to it all, and was soon making window-frames etc., which mostly turned out very well. But I didn't rush things, because I liked to take the opportunity to look in on my master's private room, close by the workshop, whenever I could. However I found little of interest there that I thought I would be able to make use of in any way, and soon lost interest in the place. Within a few days, I began to desire freedom again. I took fair account of the situation, said my farewells and went out into the world again�.

Bessler didn’t even have respect for the mans privacy as he was sneaking about the private room and when he didn’t find anything of use he would leave as quick as he came, in one door and out the other. :) Cleary you have to question the morality of besslers’ behavior.

It's not as straight forward as that - what you don't know is that the craftsman in question was master craftsman Andreas Gärtner himself! This is one of the funniest twists to whole Bessler story - imagine Gärtner's surprise when he read that passage and found out that Bessler had worked for him in the past, and to hear him say he had been snooping around his private room and found nothing of interest! It may be that he didn't actually snoop around in Gärtner's private room but just wants Gärtner to think he did. Gärtner wouldn't know whether he did or not, so what a great comeback from Bessler, lol!

Stewart

[DrWhat]

Hi Ken,

my view is that his clues were probably honest but highly ambiguous. "weights acted in pairs" could simply infer that every weight was just two weights stuck/placed together. Makes removal easier/lighter.

"... movement ( or swinging)" how ambiguous is that! They moved or swung. That doesn't leave much left!

"one took an outer position, the other an inner position... swapping places all the time", this could be all happening at the periphery, across the wheel, anywhere in fact. And may not be inducing a force on the wheel at all. It could be a small aspect of movement.

It's like me saying I travel to work, but maybe I work from home and just walk to my study! I still travel just a short distance and by foot.

My view is develop the principle/wheel from scratch the way YOU think it should be made, and when you have a theory/model, just compare it to the Bessler clues to get some confidence that maybe you are onto something.

[Quartz]

Stewart

Thank you for sharing that, I had no idea, that is funny lol.

Ken

[Quartz]

Hi DrWhat

I like your analogy.

I know we would all like to believe that bessler wouldn’t lie about his clues, but truth be that when you twist or disguise the truth to suite your own purpose then the integrity of that truth becomes lost, this would be viewed as dishonest, and that’s why we call them white lies.

Ken

[Mak#1]

Ken; As you probably know Wagner was Besslers greatest enemy, or that is what I got when read John Collins AP, If you want to hear alittle of what Wagner had to say about Bessler, check out Johns website http://www.free-energy.co.uk/html/bessl ... emies.html

[DrWhat]

Wow Stewart. That is brilliant! Something I didn't know!

[rlortie]

Quartz,

funny you should start this topic at this time. Today I have been in communication with another member via private mail. Below is an excerpt of the letter I sent him, please note; this is my opinion!

Edited for brevity and removal of personal expressions

Regarding your input on math, I say forget it until after you have achieved a runner, and then you can explain mathematically why and how it works. I do not see where math can help achieve the first actual working proto-type, although it may help advance or improve it after the fact. The Euler/Newton math was not present until after Bessler's wheel demonstrations.

I Believe that Bessler not unlike you or I, fell upon the answer by inspirational thought and hands on experimenting. He claims if was a gift from God and if we can stumble across the answer, I too would say it was a gift from God. IMO Bessler did not find the answer with penciled math but rather trial and error just as we address the challenge.

I now spend more time on inspirational thought than I do building. Only after lengthy consideration do I head for the shop. The less time I spend there constructing dismal failures the more patience I retain to press forward. This morning has been productive for me after spending most of yesterday doing imaginary doodling on the ceiling. I have yet to construct that which inspired me last night, but I would like to believe I have busted another part of the puzzle of the “Jacobs Ladder� depicted in MT 138.

I do not label Bessler as a genius! His scholastic record shows that although he did attend various schools of college level, to my knowledge he was not recognized as a graduate of any of them. I see a self-taught person specializing in fields that interested him. After a matter of time and with knowledge gained he become bored and moved on. He was self educated in what physics interested him; otherwise he would have learned that the pursuit of what he discovered was considered by all standards to be impossible.

This thinking by the learned still holds true today. It is left up to versatile people such as you, me and others of calling to prove them wrong and vindicate Bessler. A man considered “versatile� by those who witnessed his machine. Some of which implied that Bessler was not an educated man by their standards. Thus the social behavior noted of Bessler, his temperament, calling them “Fops� and avoiding there spittle. After all they are the ones recognized as being educated and he is the one with the machine that allegedly is impossible to achieve.

I know that if I were to build such a machine and have someone with a college degree tell me "You can't do that" I know what my thoughts would be and it would make Bessler a pacifist in comparison.

To my thinking Bessler's traits were and are not that uncommon. I can relate to this myself. having changed occupations many times during my working career simply out of boredom. Once things felt repetitive I would move on to new horizons and learn more of that which interested me.

And yes, you might say I used my employer for selfish gains other than monetary, but then how many of us can say we did not.

Ralph

[barksalot]

Quartz

He may have feared them stealing it but finding it via clues would not be stealing.

Why would he give clues unless he thought they would not take them seriously.

I suppose if you think they are lies then that makes sense. He was trying to mislead his enemies.

I believe the clues to be true.

Mike

[Quartz]

Ralph

Do you use deception in acquiring information from others like you can hardly count up to three, and do you do it often? And because you know its wrong, you do it anyway?

Do you picked the brains of others for information and be gone before they knew what you were up to?

Do you meet others’ under false pretences?

Ralph You say you have used your employer for selfish gain, and then you try to justify it by asking how many of us commit the same act. Even if others’ did, that doesn’t make it right, but isn’t that the point.


Ken

[Quartz]

Mike

The whole point of this is to believe whether or not his clues have any truth to them or whether the point of them were to serve as confusion or distract from the real truth.


Ken

[rlortie]

Ken,

Your above response is in my opinion taking my post out of context. I see it as though you are trying to start a personal pissing match.

I refuse to respond to your above questions as I feel they are derogatory.

Ralph