Bessler morality in question

[Quartz]

Ralph

God no, I cant stop laughing, you misunderstood. Those questions weren’t really meant for you these are the acts of bessler I’ am sure you don’t conduct your self this way, I assumed you read my first post and when you said that these things weren’t that uncommon I felt the need to ask the questions in that form, of course knowing the answer would be no I thought that I would have made my point in that these acts would be seen as immoral I’ am sorry you misunderstood.

Ken

[rlortie]

Quartz/Ken,

OK! now that I know where you stand I will respond

Do you use deception in acquiring information from others like you can hardly count up to three, and do you do it often? And because you know its wrong, you do it anyway?

No I do not deceive any one for personal gain, I am quite adamant of my personal integrity. Bessler may have gone out of his way to learn certain skills of his interest, but then their is no deception in wishing to learn and if an employer is willing to teach for their own productive gain, then both profit.

Do you picked the brains of others for information and be gone before they knew what you were up to?

No! I "brain storm" with others in an open atmosphere where all involved are open to shared information in order to debate/promote the subjects at hand.

I have no proof that Bessler attempted to deceive anyone with false pretense in order to gain the knowledge of his machine. He may have entered into employment to learn specif skills but I would say his employer would have also benefited. His deception is noted after the fact. Where as he was unable to obtain a patent at the time, it was the only protection available to him. He stated that he would be open about the design after it was sold.

The design was said to be simple and it was found where others had looked. Even a carpenters boy could build it. Once sold the buyer would feel cheated because of the simplicity of it. This only leaves me to believe that Bessler was not attempting to deceive with his machine, he said what he could without revealing the design. IMO Bessler was not attempting to sell a machine but rather the "idea" behind it.

Do you meet others’ under false pretenses?

As Popeye The sailor would say" I am what I am and that's all that I am". I do not attempt to "outdo the Joneses next door" In Bessler's defense, I cannot say that other than your opening statement he is not guilty of the charge either. Bessler's so called deception is only noted after the fact, not before his gained knowledge leading to his social behavioral notoriety.

Ralph You say you have used your employer for selfish gain, and then you try to justify it by asking how many of us commit the same act. Even if others’ did, that doesn’t make it right, but isn’t that the point.

Any one who has to work for a living, receives in one form or another occupational skills that benefit themselves as well as provide more cost effective production to their employer. If an employer provides schooling to employees, does not both benefit? Is there a right or a wrong committed? Does an apprentice steal with deception that which the tutor offers, or does he take it as part of learning a required trade skill? Does the recipient receive personal gain from experience learned? I would say yes and that it is a fact of life!

Ralph

[Quartz]

Ralph

I respect your views and opinions.

I see that you answered no to the questions great, then I shall view you as a moral person in that you go about obtaining information in a positive way that would benefit both you and other people. Bessler did not and because of the way he went about doing it, it puts into question his morality. Though I do respect your attempts at casting this in a positive spin.

Ralph
I notice at the bottom of your page you left out the word selfish gain and replaced it with personnel gain, what can I say.

ken

[graham]

I think that in nearly 300 years the fact that no one has found Bessler's clues to be of any help at all, speak volumes of their worth. ZERO.
He wasn't exactly lying but just playing games with words. Toying with the readers of his publications using vague and ambiguous descriptions of the mechanism. Being very careful to give nothing away that could be even remotely helpful.

No,I'm afraid this will have to be reinvented from the ground up using only eyewitness accounts of what they saw and heard.

The odds are not in our favor.

Graham

[Mak#1]

I believe Bessler even impersonated a minister at one time, or at least that what it sounds like to me, If you read in Johns AP XV second to the last paragraph he says " People may well remember the black coated cleric who preached thereabouts for a time. He had several hundred pamplets, and people paid gladly to hear him, yet he kept himself to himself, and no one really knew who he was." Im not sure but it sounds like he was describing himself??

[Quartz]

Mak

That’s Brilliant

Yes, Yes, I never thought that, I wouldn’t put it past him, what do you think it means.

Ken

[graham]

This was before he had invented his wheel .

It was all part of the description of his life . He was probably just bragging about the many talents he was acquiring in preparation for his invention . His "gift from God".

Religion was an important part of his life and he seems to have posed as a minister quite effectively.

He was not dishonest but rather, an unusual character with many skills.

Graham

[Quartz]

OH my

I ‘am going out on a limb here, I will say bessler book (AP) reads more like a playwright, and I’ll bet much of it’s fictional mixed with truth.

Just my opinion

Ken

[AB Hammer]

graham

I believe you hit it on the nose. But there is no way we can judge his true character without going back through time.

[graham]

Ken.
When I wrote this:

He wasn't exactly lying but just playing games with words. Toying with the readers of his publications using vague and ambiguous descriptions of the mechanism. Being very careful to give nothing away that could be even remotely helpful.

I wasn't entirely correct.

AP page 353
"If I arrange to have just one crossbar in the machine it revolves very slowly just as if it could hardly turn itself at all"

This seems to be a specific comment on the machines workings. A clue telling us that his underlying principle did not create much of an imbalance at all until multiplied with several crossbar assemblies.

If this is true then it might be of help to those who are trying to solve this puzzle.
It makes it easier to conduct experiments creating "single crossbars" with low performance rather than more complex "wheels" that run like crazy.

Graham

[Quartz]

Hi Graham

You’re right; out of all the clues this one seems to be the most likely candidate. I looked back on a topic (what in your opinion is a crossbar?) that Mac started, and found a post that Ralph wrote, I hope he wont mind if I show it here as it’s a perfect example of how one most go about discerning the truth.


Ralph wrote

“IMO, the reference to "cross bar" was not a lie. It is one of very few statements he made that was perfectly clear.

I believe that it is the foundational phrase he used to build credence in his machine. I could not think of a better way to attract curiosity than to say; "It will barely run with one crossbar" A statement that he would have to live up to once his wheel was sold.

Bessler was very cautious about a slip of the tongue in what he wrote. There are very few statements made that one can take objectively. Cross bars, ropes and pulleys, and the "connectivity" of it all, seem to be the leaders�.

Ralph

[broli]

This is what I also thought. If you could make it work with just one bar then it can work with as many as you like. Btw a bar being a some type of rod going across the wheel pinned in the middle and having some weight magic on both sides.

[Quartz]

Alan

I don’t think we need to go back through time to get a good sense of the mans character, after all we do have his writings, of course in questioning the mans morality doesn’t necessarily Mean we need judge him, although, there seems to be a wide consensus as to what’s moral and immoral, witch is largely contributed to upbringing, I guess it would be a mater of your own interpretation.

Ken

[Mak#1]

Hi Ken: It was not Mac that started that topic but Mak I just found out yesterday that there was a member here who called himself Mac, now I know why some people have been refering to me as mac, Ill have to ask scott how much trouble it would be to change my handle?!

[Quartz]

lol
Sorry Mak

Ken