The KEY, possibly?

[primemignonite]

Something within an actual working wheel must gain or lose weight, in order to create that elusive imbalance after which we so longingly seek.

Along this line, then, my question to the more scientifically informed among us would be:

Is there ANY GAS, which when compressed or rarified or in some special state, might GAIN or LOSE in mass, somehow?

Although it does not seem likely to me, if by some slim chance there were such, then THERE we would have it indeed!

If my powers of recollection serve rather than to fool, did not Bessler state somewhere, that his principle was one deeply imbedded within Nature?

Such a gas, were it to exist, would certainly conform to that, and also, quite nicely to the subject of bellows (pneumatics), and weights being heard to fall on one side, etc.

Also occurring to me to wonder about is when gases are compressed, do not their TEMPERATURES increase suddenly, and conversely, when rarified, lessen?

Well whatever the actual case, no doubt, as usual, conservation of energy within closed systems will work to cruelly thwart our fine-feathered plans . . .

Sure, it's a long-shot, but who knows? There might be something there.

James

[ovyyus]

I know of no substance, gas or otherwise, which loses mass when compressed. On the other hand, gas will gain weight when compressed due to decreased buoyancy.

On the matter of temperature, if Bessler found a substance which decreased it's thermal energy in response to a lesser applied mechanical force then he would have discovered a free energy source capable of driving his overbalancing weights through environmental heat extraction.

At one point in my search for just such a solution I thought I might have found it in the form of rubber. Rubber heats when expanded and cools when compressed. Stretch an elastic band and it gets hot, once cooled to room temperature allow the stretched elastic band to relax and it gets notably cold. A simple observation that goes mostly unnoticed.

[primemignonite]

Thanks for the information, Bill, I knew I could count on you.

You wrote:

"I know of no substance, gas or otherwise, which loses mass when compressed. . . ."

Of course, I should have used weight there instead of "mass". Naturally, the molecular quantity cannot possibly decrease in the perfect dash-pot, other than by means "magical", which is not in our tool set.

Continuing,

". . . On the other hand, gas will gain weight when compressed due to decreased buoyancy."

YES! That is EXACTLY what I was looking for!!!

So, what you are saying is, that if a gas is compressed on the side of a wheel while going UP, it will be lighter than when not, while going DOWN?

If true, then this situation would result in a positive WEIGHT DIFFERENTIAL which would equate to that of FORCE, and we all know what that means . . .

James

[scott]

A while ago I wondered about a hypothetical air pressure engine based on exploiting the difference in air pressure between large and small altitudes in the earth's atmosphere.

See: http://www.besslerwheel.com/wwwboard/messages/231.html

Now, I think buoyancy is the problem, not the answer. The buoyancy of the compressed piston at the top of the cycle offsets that at the bottom and the wheel keels. At 9 and 3 o'clock buoyancy probably makes the weights balance.

I agree buoyancy is especially interesting because it involves molecular effects which are sometimes far from intuitive, e.g. heavier than air flight. So how do you propose to find free energy in the buoyancy phenomenon?

-Scott

[primemignonite]

Scott,

You wrote: ". . . So how do you propose to find free energy in the buoyancy phenomenon?"

Actually, I don't, or, I would be very surprised if anyone were to!

I have developed a healthy respect for COE, within closed systems.

My expectation is that weight displacements, in the act of rarifying or compressing gasses, would at least equal any differential gains to be gotten from the achieved buoyancy vs. it's opposite, whatever it is called, less the usual dreary losses.

Nature attends to Her business, never failing us. (Ahem!) Bless Her heart.

What interests me even more, is the source of this perfect consistency of attention to the natural laws being applied. It never misses a beat. NEVER!

I always vexingly come back to an early-on thought I had: did Bessler receive a "special dispensation" with regard to the laws of nature, somehow, someway?

I know; I know, it is getting into terra incognito, but where else is left to us to go?

James

[primemignonite]

Scott,

Extending upon your question I quoted, if the gas chosen were non-linearly reactive in it's buoyancy characteristic when compressed or rarified, then, there could be gain to be had from the force differential thus achieved, I think.

In this area, what does make things much easier, is the fact that Bessler had very limited choices of gasses, as compared to now.

What ones? Hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, CO2, CO, ordinary atmospheric air? That would be about it, I think.

Ken Behrendt would have been the guy to ask about these matters, since he is a trained chemist.

Reactive gas; one that gives more effect than is required to get it; that would be the ticket

(Watch out - something for nothing territory approaching!)

James

[Quartz]

James wrote

(“I always vexingly come back to an early-on thought I had: did Bessler receive a "special dispensation" with regard to the laws of nature, somehow, someway?�)


That’s a very interesting thought, could there actually be an exception to the rules of Mother Nature. Has there ever been observed in the whole of our knowledge no matter how small, an exception any were in nature?

Ken

[ovyyus]

James, fluid vapour might better substitute a working gas.

[primemignonite]

Hello Ken,

I meant a "special" as in coming from "on-high"!?

What might possibly be a reason? How about to teach us latter-day hard cases a lesson? How about that?

Don't much like to enter that territory as some do find it irritating, but I think that it's just there, coming with the package, so-to-speak, take it or leave it.

"Has there ever been observed in the whole of our knowledge no matter how small, an exception any were in nature?"

To my admittedly limited knowledge, Ken, in our narrow Newtonian plane of existence, ONLY in the case of Bessler! The quality and quantity of witnessing done of his Wheel in-action, is simply compelling to all honest on-lookers. Sadly, the scientists are often prejudiced, infected with a dogmatic myopia which tarnishes their much-vaunted, so-called dispassionateness.

James

[primemignonite]

Bill, I'm afraid you've got me!

I haven't a clue as to what one might be.

(I could guess, though.)

What would be an example of one that Bessler might have had access to? Any modern day ones would not be fair to include in the game.

A "fluid vapor"; sounds MESSY! :-)

James

[rlortie]

James,

Picking up from the thread "Bessler's morality" I would like to say that Stewart's forum is not considered "Private" it is a place where the more serious and experienced seekers can find solitude from the hen picking!

Ralph, a bit earlier I started a new TOPIC: "The KEY, possibly?"
A numerous twenty five have looked, but so-far none have
provided any answers. Might YOU have one, by chance?
I know you to have a mind in many places, which true beauty
fo soul embraces.

In consideration of those who have responded, I wish to avoid any offense by stating that the above quote was written before this thread become active!

I am familiar with Liquid oxygen compressed Helium, Co2, nitrogen and mixtures there-of used in industrial practices for Tig, Mig, and stainless steel (Nickel) orbital welding. Also liquid oxygen used for transporting live fish in tanker trucks and replacing compressed oxygen in Acetylene cutting and welding practices.

All of the above must be handled with care as some will cause serious freezing and Co2 if released in quantity will replace oxygen in the air. Acetylene can explode if allowed to reach/exceed 15 PSI in a gaseous state. Seven to 10 PSI being the standard maximum used in commercial applications.

There is one chemical that Bessler had available and may have been aware of its potential, We certainly find use for it today and it may be deemed as Bill states a "fluid vapor" it is ammonia!

Ammonia, colorless, pungent gas, NH3, highly soluble in water. A saturated aqueous (water) solution of ammonia contains 45 percent ammonia by weight at 0° C (32° F) and 30 percent at ordinary room temperatures. On solution in water, ammonia becomes ammonium hydroxide, NH4OH, which is strongly basic and similar in chemical behavior to the hydroxides of the alkali metals (see Acids and Bases; Alkalies).

Ammonia was known to the ancients, who derived both the name and the substance from sal ammoniac, which was produced at the Temple of Jupiter Ammon in Libya by the distillation of camel dung. During the Middle Ages in Europe ammonia was obtained by heating the horns and hoofs of oxen and was called spirits of hartshorn. Free ammonia was obtained by the German alchemist Basil Valentine; its composition was determined by the French chemist Comte Claude Berthollet about 1777.
In the 19th century the principal source of ammonia was the destructive distillation of coal; it was an important by-product of the manufacture of fuel gases (see Gases, Fuel). Today most ammonia is produced synthetically from hydrogen and nitrogen (see Nitrogen Fixation). Ammonia is an important refrigerant (see Refrigeration) and is widely used in the chemical industries, especially in the manufacture of fertilizer, nitric acid, and explosives.

Ammonia melts at -77.7° C (-107.9° F), boils at -33.35° C (-28.03° F), and has a density of 0.68 at its boiling point and 1 atm (760 torrs) of pressure.

"Ammonia," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 97 Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1996 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

I find it hard to believe that Bessler utilized any of these to power his wheel. To my knowledge it takes much more energy to extract and compress such gases than one can derive with the exception of an outright combustible explosion, and this would require a mixture of two one being an oxidizer and the other a fuel. For one thing if they were used I would believe that the eyewitnesses would have picked up on it by either the thermal reaction or the smell. They could not escape the smell of ammonia.

Sorry but I think I will stick to my Euler/Newton-'sGravensende concepts.
As each day of researching passes I lean more not toward centrifugal force but rather centripetal force.

Ralph

[daxwc]

Mt 92 might be showing a liquid that turns to vapour under hydrostatic pressure.

[primemignonite]

Well, Ralph, thanks for adding-on quite a lot here.

OK, not private. I have yet to get in, and see what's going on there.

I started this thread thinking of weights falling with bellows being inside and so-on, that it might mean a change in weight on account of compressed/rarified air molecules, then Ovyyus added-in buoyancy (which is, like Peek Friens, peuce and a few choice others, a word I am coming to loath! It is a stupid looking word!) and much began to focus.

Also, you've got impact available inside. It really is more Ovyyus' area which he staked-out quite awhile ago.

Where, if any place, will this go? Who knows, but that clue of Ovyyus' is a good one. I'm just afraid it is the old dog chasing it's tail sort of thing again, and that COE in a closed system will wreck everything, as usual.

It is not much fun without a little "give" of something, sometime, once in awhile, from Mother Nature.

I am considering building classical, perpetual motion FAKES, and showing them for charge, but honestly it makes no real sense in a larger way, if and until there is a real one existing.

Regards,

James

[primemignonite]

OK, a thought experiment:

A really thick skinned balloon is weighed, and that notated.

Then, it is filled with atmospheric air. Since it is thick skinned
this balloon's pressure inside will be very high. The molecules
inside will be compressed together noticably, if they could be
observed..

Question:

Upon weighing once again, will the balloon weigh the same as when uninflated, or more, or less?

James

[greendoor]

I believe heat wheels based on phase-change of liquids are real, feasible devices. See the Minto wheel. And never mind those bungling clowns they call Mythbusters .. they are in somebody's pocket to spread disinformation.

But I doubt this is the Bessler wheel. I'm intrigued about snowflakes ... he may have used water. Water expands when frozen - making it less dense. This is unusual for a fluid ...