John Collins wrote:Thanks for the link Jim. Actually I don't see how a free-energy device would be a threat to national security in these times, but you never know how the collective mind of a government agency might react.
JC
John - are you kidding? Controlling energy is one way to maintain control over the peasants, not to mention the tax component. Think of the various ways that real free energy could undermine a government:
1 - it would be perfect for hydroponic drug growers
2 - there seems to be a worldwide trend towards wireless tecnology power meters. These could be used to collect data about people, therefore they probably are. Free energy allows criminals & activists to remain hidden.
3 - unlimited free energy means unlimited transport, unlimited food & water (e.g. hydroponics, water recycling ... many good technologies that are too energy intensive become possible). The power to evade taxes and hole up when necessary becomes viable.
4 - I could go on like this randomly for ages ...
Like I said - the balance of power would shift dramatically. War is all about deception and resources ... never underestimate the impact of free energy.
War mongers and criminals are usually the first to exploit any new technology. This time, I hope it's the peaceniks who run with it first.
Don't forget mining Earth's oceans for the elements of the Periodic Table with a side product of fresh water for farming. Not only would there be unlimited energy available for such things as manufacturing and agriculture, but it would make everything cost practically nothing. I think the biggest threat to the world's governments would be spiralling deflation, as solutions would need be worked out for that. Keeping free energy a secret? I think it would be about as easy as keeping the knowledge there was a WW11 a secret. Earth would just be under the threat of having to grow up into an age of abundance perhaps too fast.
Greendoor, I am a firm believer in not patenting a gravity wheel. If you need fame and fortune you'd still get it and if you preferred obscurity you could have that instead - there are ways.
Governments don't need to control the design on the grounds of national security all they need to do is tax it in the same way they do cars, electricity and gas - and they will.
Yep; they will tax it to death, and then they will double government spending (again) on their power base. A free market economy or free enterprise has virtually disappeared in the “Free� world. This is a political cycle; maybe it will cycle back. Remove a man’s incentive and you remove is integrity, and then they become pawns of the state. We still have to do what we believe is right, I don’t care if people patent or not, but we are more scientists than politicians.
I doubt they could tax a gravity wheel. Makes much more sense just to ruthlessly supress it. A government can take all the money they want by taking other easier targets - or money itself. Fuel & power are convenient options at the moment, but if taken away there is still water, food & money itself. Things like air, solar, radiant energy & gravity should hopefully remain tax free. But the material required (metals etc) might become expensive. Thankfully, a low-tech solution that can make the most of waste materials might be seen as a godsend to any smart government.
Of course, another possibility has often occurred to me: it's possible that free energy is already being used by the big corporations & governments. I worked for big oil for 18 years and saw some interesting inside information at times. The oil industry makes massive use of patents. My job contract signed away all patent rights to any inventions I may have come up with. I was amazed at how high tech some of the operations were - and I have no doubt that any good idea that works to their benefit would be fully exploited. The easy hanging fruit has been taken, and big oil now has to work a little harder to get at the oil reserves. This means it takes Energy to make & sell an Energy product. What better way to launder free energy!
Here's the thing: free energy is currently available - it's no big deal. Solar heating, wind power, photovoltaic arrays - it's all free energy, and nothing really stopping it's wholesale use. Governments are even encouraging this stuff now. The problem is that the capital cost is quite high, so as usual - the rich get richer and the poor stay poorer. A working gravity wheel is probably going to be just as expensive for most people. The energy providers are probably going to be best placed for capitalising on the technology, and then continuing to sell power to the poor people.
Jim wrote:Almost 300 years ago the government taxed Bessler's wheel!
I'm surprised to hear this fiction go unchallenged!
Jim, Bessler was taxed on the income he received from charging people to view his wheel. If he had been taxed for charging people to view his pet ferret would you also say the government was taxing ferrets?
I don't know about the situation in the rest of the world, but here, in the US, there was a time when the electricity outlet was attached to what was called a "Public Utility".
The one existing in Los Angeles California, where I lived for four decades, namely the Department of Water and Power, is owned and operated by the city.
During the power crisis of a decade ago (?) our rates did not go up, but rather, remained unchanged, and the power continued-on without a single blackout, while others, in Santa Monica and elsewhere, suffered upped rates and blackouts!
Why this?
Because the city (the People) OWNED this natural monopoly rather than a for-profit corporation, and it's set-up rubber stamp "regulating" commisions. Also, it owns it's own power generation facilities, and stores, prudently, reserves of fuels to operate it.
Natural monopolies such that modern civilization depends upon for continued existence, should NOT EVER be owned by for-profit corporations! If so, they have in their hands the ability to DESTROY utterly all dependents!
In this form, they are Extortion By Monopoly Inc. racketeers! (It will be a very good thing for them, indeed, if I do not become eventual dictator, and the very best for them - the rope supplies will stay fully-stocked!)
It was the de-regulation fury of the very sick and insuperably insane Neo-Cons, that has now put the knife to all our throats, in the name of stinking "profit" at any cost, here in the US!
(Maybe Barama will serve to somewhat equalize what is now very out-of-balance, by means of his socialism, balancing and slowing the ever-wildly swinging scales somewhat.)
By-the-way, on a personal level, one CAN do without the undoubtable luxury of a private motor coach! I know, for I've done-so for all my life.
Also credit. I always said to my friends, now mostly in trouble
"You do CREDIT, and credit with do YOU!
And so, it came to pass. As all low life humanity loves to do to one another, they laughed! NOW, however, the laughter has stopped; no more smart a*sed snickering being heard by these ears!
(Just WHAT the f*ck is one TO DO with such types - the "ruling" majority?)
Also, I will leave you all with this treasure to be predictably ignored (I've yet to experince an exception and so, I so-believe "predictable"!):
"USURY IS THE DESTRUCTION OF NATIONS!"
Given the spectacle of what is happening globally (to those who may be paying attention) I ask, WHAT do we now NOT understand about the above???
(This is requiring-of an answer! I hereby solicit them.)
Where it comes to associations as connecting over time, homo sapiens is the MOST stupid and stubborn of animals! This lack does demonstrate by virtuoso means, the popular delusion that over-arching, trans-generational CONSPIRACIES "cannot" exist. (In this, THEY are depending on us! Believe it!)
Whatever spirit we can get hold-of, or anything that is of higher development as aparted from the gross and grunting, and the simple-obvious, we surely do need!
Bring 'er on!
James
Cynic-In-Chief, BesslerWheel (Ret.); Perpetualist First-Class; Iconoclast. "The Iconoclast, like the other mills of God, grinds slowly, but it grinds exceedingly small." - Brann
"In a loosely coordinated movement, dozens of hardware inventors around the world have begun to freely publish their specs. There are open source synthesizers, MP3 players, guitar amplifiers, and even high-end voice-over-IP phone routers. You can buy an open source mobile phone to talk on, and a chip company called VIA has just released an open source laptop: Anyone can take its design, fabricate it, and start selling the notebooks..."
Thanks Ovyyus for that link. I think at this time my best bet is to build a prototype and see if it will work. At that moment if it works, I will decide my options. Like John Collins and Greendoor suggests such a device may become something of a national security issue so that may end it all right there. If such a device is legal, then I want to be the one who invented it, even if I decide to open source it.
Hi Fletcher, Way back at the beginning of this thread you quoted " How do I move a mass from the bottom to the top using less force than F=ma"? Well that is pretty obvious by using unequal Moment Arms. The question should be "How do I design a mechanism to control the length of the Moment Arms"? When this is achieved, there will be a runner with nothing other than Gravity and Mechanics involved. We all believe that it is possible. After all, we have probably all witnessed an overbalanced beam (same masses, unequal moment Arms) rotate to 6 o clock and the beam in having done so, has lifted the opposite mass to 12 o clock. Nobody has as yet, to my knowledge, been able to come up with a design to move/shift the masses or Moment Arms back to the starting position.
Further posts make mention of " some other sort of force involved". (In Bessler`s wheel). No. Highly unlikely. " A carpenter`s boy would be able to reproduce the Wheel"? or some such (Bessler`s)? (insinuating that it is no big deal). Would this Carpenter `s apprentice be conversant with "some other force" that even today, nobody knows what it may have been or is? Highly unlikely.
Quote from Wiki
In 1719 Bessler himself published a pamphlet, entitled The Triumphant Orffyrean Perpetual Motion, in which a vague account of his principles is included[1]. He suggested that the wheel depended upon weights, placed so that they can "never obtain equilibrium".
Certainly looks to me as if GRAVITY and Mechanics were the only criteria.
Ok this is against my better judgement. This is my last clue; but all these gravity engines fail because of differentials. These arms trying to extract energy you can not get energy from gravitation in this manner. As I said when I first came here balance is the key.
ectropy wrote:snip ..After all, we have probably all witnessed an overbalanced beam (same masses, unequal moment Arms) rotate to 6 o clock and the beam in having done so, has lifted the opposite mass to 12 o clock. Nobody has as yet, to my knowledge, been able to come up with a design to move/shift the masses or Moment Arms back to the starting position.
Very true - we have all witnessed it & cannot escape it - anyone who thinks there is a smart way of beating leverage just need play with a steelyard or balance beam for a while - a small mass at greater radius can swing a heavier mass on a shorter moment to 12 o'cl, but it cannot lift it to the same radius as the lesser driving mass & be at 12 o'cl - so leverage principles, whilst used in every machine, by themselves cannot make it self sustaining & continually overbalanced, balance will be sort & found !
ectropy wrote:Further posts make mention of " some other sort of force involved". (In Bessler`s wheel). No. Highly unlikely. " A carpenter`s boy would be able to reproduce the Wheel"? or some such (Bessler`s)? (insinuating that it is no big deal). Would this Carpenter `s apprentice be conversant with "some other force" that even today, nobody knows what it may have been or is? Highly unlikely.
There are many practical devices I use every day that I take for granted - often I look at the action & say I understand, but at what level ? - I'm sure the carpenter's boy could follow the action but would he understand the forces in action & would that be necessary given he could see it self sustaining ? - would he know what the motivating force actually was [like a mathematician might want to know] or would he just be happy to bolt it all together in the correct way & see it work ? - I'm sure he could do that !
ectropy wrote:Quote from Wiki
In 1719 Bessler himself published a pamphlet, entitled The Triumphant Orffyrean Perpetual Motion, in which a vague account of his principles is included[1]. He suggested that the wheel depended upon weights, placed so that they can "never obtain equilibrium".
Certainly looks to me as if GRAVITY and Mechanics were the only criteria.
Regards.
They could never obtain equilibrium or 'balance' although every other mechanical system ever devised by man does, unless assisted by a fuel source - that fuel source provides a force that can be used to cycle things - that fuel source could be combustible or it can be derived from a differential, ambient or manufactured for the purpose - I would disagree & say Bessler needed another supplementary force to cycle his wheel so that gravity could again drive it thru the unbalanced phase.
" a small mass at greater radius can swing a heavier mass on a shorter moment to 12 o'cl, but it cannot lift it to the same radius as the lesser driving mass & be at 12 o'cl "
Yes, with reference to conventional designs. Look back at a few of Pathfinder`s animations. Mass anchor axis remain concentric to the main shaft axis. Radii remain constant. What is required is a mechanism to control the rotation of the weights. Unfortunately one finds that there is always a conflict of rotational direction of forces when using gearing.
As to the "some other force"?
I wonder, would Bessler have "discovered" this unknown force BEFORE he designed and built his wheel or would it have been "discovered" by fluke AFTER having built the wheel. If it was BEFORE, then we have an even bigger mystery. How would he have discovered this force in everyday life. If it was AFTER, then he really would not know what the hell this Mysterious Force was all about anyway. Bugger the wheel. I want this FORCE.
