Impact is the Key

[smotgroup]

This is the best way an engineer would test Gravity vs Electricity and as a standard model should be used to test electrical inputs as weights free fall against weights that are actuated. the setup could be designed to be more complex but I don't think it is required.

[smotgroup]

Also in the above test a center of gravity actuator can be used in the center wheel for other electrical input & output testing.

Jerry

[greendoor]

Greendoor, why would you intentionally try to confuse the difference between the noise made by an optionally applied load and the noise made by the wheel itself?

This clearly proves you were sent here to distract and mislead.

Clearly. And Teuber must have got it wrong when he wrote the "the machine began to rotate with great force and noise ..." He didn't specify that the noise came from the stampers - considering he just described the stampers, don't you think he would mention if the noise came from the stampers? The stampers clearly did not "rotate" - so isn't it more likely the "machine" that "began to rotate with great force and noise" was the wheel, and not the stampers?

And I don't know what source said the stampers were optional. Who said that?

The reason this whole thing is cloaked in mystery & deceit is because Bessler made sure the secret remained a secret. I have no doubt he used misdirection, and very probably he used tricks to conceal - maybe the noisy stampers were such a trick. Or maybe they were part of the mechanism - the best place to hide something is right in front of everyone's noses.

Do we even know that the wheel speed was uniform? We know it accelerated to a relatively regular average speed - as timed by watches of the day. But does that mean constant speed? I see one witness used the word "impulse" when describing output power - maybe that's a translation error. Bearing in mind, alternative power sources of the day (animal, steam, wind) weren't necessarily uniform speed either. If the wheel speed pulsed or oscillated, would medieval witnesses necessarily consider this noteworthy?

When the principle is known, I think much of this stuff will become clear - even if we can't figure out exactly what Bessler did. I have my own notion that seems to fit the facts fairly well.

I have to question the motives of anyone who strenuosly denies that impact is a factor in Bessler's wheel. Why would you do that? Where is your running wheel?

The Anvil & Many Blows
The Flail & the Thresher
The Children with the Loud Heavy Clubs (or Loud Heavy Marbles)
Acrobats & Shadow Boxers
A Pat on the Paws for the Dog
Even the Cat Snatching Juicy Mice

Don't any of these suggest impact/impulse of some kind?

If we want to talk about Black Ops misinformation - people like ovyyus who run conspicuous websites that yeild zero fruit have to be prime candidates. Why the anger about the idea that impact is involved?? Is this too close to the truth?

I think that any wheel that silently directs mass around a specific path is doomed to failure (sorry pathfinder - but I think you realise this too). For practical purposes, this is a closed system, and all forces will sum to zero.

Impact offers a chance for energy to be transfered from one open system to another open system.

[daxwc]

Greendoor quote:

If the wheel speed pulsed or oscillated, would medieval witnesses necessarily consider this noteworthy?

The medieval reign was from 5th to the 1500's AD, so 1712 was not even close to the middle ages. The men were no less intelligent then they are today in both eras.

[ovyyus]

I'm puzzled. I've just been to the website mentioned in your profile and under the speculation section there is an animation which strongly suggests impact.

The animated MT18 is supposed to represent my speculation page under construction, as might be suggested by the heading "under construction". I thought that was pretty clear.

...Teuber must have got it wrong when he wrote the "the machine began to rotate with great force and noise ..." He didn't specify that the noise came from the stampers - considering he just described the stampers, don't you think he would mention if the noise came from the stampers?

Considering he just described the stampers, his comment was describing operation of the wheel driving the stampers. Duh.

And I don't know what source said the stampers were optional. Who said that?

Bessler said the stampers were optional. Reading the available historical material, much of which is freely available, should help you with the basics.

...maybe the noisy stampers were such a trick. Or maybe they were part of the mechanism - the best place to hide something is right in front of everyone's noses.

Again, reading the available history would help you with the basics. In that light your above question is pointless.

If the wheel speed pulsed or oscillated, would medieval witnesses necessarily consider this noteworthy?

You really aren't a student of history. Bessler's time was far from medieval.

...people like ovyyus who run conspicuous websites that yeild zero fruit...

Once again, more statements based on your own spontaneous belief's rather than actual knowledge. You seem to be a habitual lazy researcher. The point of orffyre.com is in large part to deliver a free version of Bessler's MT to my fellow researchers. You question my work?

Impact is not the key.

[docfeelsgood]

does anyone know what the key really is ???

[Grimer]

Isn't it ovyyus?

[ovyyus]

ovyyus-ly not doc.

Why do some people claim they hold the key, when they clearly do not? That question has a couple of equally probable answers ;)

[greendoor]

Ovyyus - history is not my strong point, Ovyyus-ly. I appreciate people who research history properly, so thanks for your work. Point taken about the Medieval period. And I agree that our ancestors were just as intelligent, if not more so, than modern thinkers. I tend to believe we are de-volving rather than evolving - and the food, drug, education & entertainment industries are ensuring that modern brains can't function as well as they could.

Red Herrings.

All I really care about is a working principle I can pursue. I have one, and so do others. That's no secret. I up front about what I will share and what I won't, and I don't intentionally mislead anyone.

Ovyyus - I doubt your sincerity and loyalty when you make unsupported sweeping statements. You are behaving like a child caught out. Why the hate & the fear?

Why the hate for impact? Are you upset that somebody else might discover the principle before you do? Or have you found the principle, and don't want to say?

Possible Ovyys situations:

Ovyyss has no working wheel - in which case he cannot make unsupported sweeping statements such as "Impact is not the key". His behaviour is then probably simple jealousy, fear, greed, bad liver, etc

Ovyuss has a working wheel, and it does not require impact. Congratulations! Since he is hiding this from us, he is probably acting out of greed, or has been bought & controlled by a higher authority. If this is the case, he must be fundamentally honest (for telling us truthfully impact is not required) but is struggling with greed or control issues, and should be marked as potentially dangerous or misleading.

Ovyuss has a working wheel, and it requires impact. In this case, he is an outright liar and not to be trusted regarding anything.

I can't think of any other options ...

[ovyyus]

All I really care about is a working principle I can pursue. I have one, and so do others.

Your definintion of a 'working' principle is applied to something that isn't actually working.

Why the hate for impact? Are you upset that somebody else might discover the principle before you do?

I hate impact now? What are you on :D

[greendoor]

Well you seem to be agressively assertive that impact is not the key. Why? Do you care about genuine discovery of the technical principles? Or do you just want to stink up the forum with bad behaviour and numerous red herrings?

I'm here to learn all I can. I appreciate genuine contributors such as Grimer - i've learned at lot from him in the last few days. Frankly - I think you've been quite rude to him.

Why?

[greendoor]

There you go again - with your edit i've only just seen:

"Your definintion of a 'working' principle is applied to something that isn't actually working. "

Why so bloody minded and defensive? IF you believed Bessler had a working wheel - then there was a basic "working principle" behind the thing that we are missing. That's all I want. I don't really care about history, or politics or even internet etiquette.

Until this secret is public knowledge - we need to look at anything and everything that might work. The quicker we can dismiss them, for valid reasons, the better.

It would be very helpful if you gave a reason why you say something cannot work. But without a working wheel, you aren't qualified (no matter how much research you have done).

The mathematicians of Bessler's day all said perpetual motion was impossible. So blanket statements from modern physicists aren't valid either. This leaves it up to the mavericks and nutters to come up with radical new ideas that should be properly tested before being discarded.

You'll notice that i've never said impact is the key. I've just said that I suspect it might be. You are throwing the whole idea out without logic or explanation. It just seems like an emotional outburst. Why?

[ovyyus]

Greendoor, I really don't think I'm the one having the emotional outburst here :)

The title of this thread is "Impact is the key". When I enquired whether Grimer could demonstrate that statement as true, he told me that he can not and that he's still working on it. Therefore the statement is false and impact is not the key. Perhaps it should read "Impact might be the Key"? But I guess anything might be the key.

... we need to look at anything and everything that might work. The quicker we can dismiss them, for valid reasons, the better.

I completely agree. But the "We" you speak of spans countless generations. The result is a vast store house of hard won knowledge. All that work is at your fingertips thanks to the marvel of this age of information access. Yet it's all wasted on someone not prepared to apply themselves to read and understand it.


PS, sorry about confusing you with the previous post edit. I tried to squeeze in an additional response but ovyyus-ly wasn't quick enough :)

[greendoor]

Fair enough. Points taken. :)

[bluesgtr44]

As far as some of the witness information goes, a lot of it can be found here. Problem is this was a long thread and you might start doing "head fakes" before you get to some of the parts that would interest you. There were some good discussions on just what is being talked about here and on other threads.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... c&start=45

Copy some of the statements and put them in any order that suits you. I am pretty much saturated with most of this and from many interpretational views. I am of the opinion that these demonstrations and the observations of some of those great minds of that era are about the best source of reality we will get concerning the Bessler solution.

Discussions as to the "how's" and the "whys" of what these documented performance evaluations of his wheels and what it would take to duplicate that effect or result no matter how it was done. A lot of these seem to be a bit.....phenomenal.....when we actually apply it physically and see what it actually takes to duplicate his results by simply applying an "off-balance" manually. He couldn't hide this performance information by using some awful prose.....mixing and mingling words....he didn't have control of that. The witnesses did!

One of my first big questions when I came to this site and read about this, was how the hell could his wheels have accelerated so quickly. His first two one way wheels were at over 50 rpm's within about 2 rotations. Neither one of the first two wheels had any witness mention a thing about any banging/hitting/tapping and from what was put forth, it stands to reason that if it was present....it would have been mentioned. So, take it for what you will.....there is a lot of direct quotes in this thread and some here might find some value in them.


Steve