Hi guys,
am new here but already visiting this forum for some time and always find myself inspired with a lot of ideas and open minded thinking here;).
When I was looking for some specifical use of centrifugal forces of pendelum I did found this http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Direct ... Oscillator and I thought this is really worth a look as it could be a missing part for our wheel. Am not saying this is the principle just want to point out were maybe could be prime mover hidden. Especialy look for newest info about this really great mechanical invention. What made me really curious about this invention is that I was thinking about something not that similiar in construction but in using of centrifugal forces.
If you would like to see what clue I mean,it is the clue about how you could lift more weigth with less. At first it looks like simple principle but it isnt that easy as it looks. Take a look http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC6Qlj1M ... annel_page
Martin
PS: If it was discussed already pls delete this thread.
Milkovic Two-Stage Mechanical Oscillator
Moderator: scott
There is a second video in on this theme by the same chap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qot30pWw ... re=channel
It has been discussed before quite recently, by greendoor and I for one - but I'm glad you brought it up again because the more you discuss these things the more ideas one gets as to what is going on.
To be fair, there is also a video somewhere on the net which claims to analyse the oscillator and show that the whole thing is a illusion and the work put out is equal to the work put in. For instance it shows that the banging gives an impression of a lot of work being done but one only has to just touch the metal plate to give a loud noise. the actual work being done is just the weight times the distance it is lifted.
Personally I don't think that trying to get experimental results is the right way to go about analysing the Milkovic Oscillator. One has to look at the logic and understand what is going on and why. The video author makes a gallant attempt at this in the second video.
The situation may be compared to the question of whether the number of primes is infinite or not. This can never be answered experimentally for obvious reasons but we can with complete certainty achieve an answer using logic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qot30pWw ... re=channel
It has been discussed before quite recently, by greendoor and I for one - but I'm glad you brought it up again because the more you discuss these things the more ideas one gets as to what is going on.
To be fair, there is also a video somewhere on the net which claims to analyse the oscillator and show that the whole thing is a illusion and the work put out is equal to the work put in. For instance it shows that the banging gives an impression of a lot of work being done but one only has to just touch the metal plate to give a loud noise. the actual work being done is just the weight times the distance it is lifted.
Personally I don't think that trying to get experimental results is the right way to go about analysing the Milkovic Oscillator. One has to look at the logic and understand what is going on and why. The video author makes a gallant attempt at this in the second video.
The situation may be compared to the question of whether the number of primes is infinite or not. This can never be answered experimentally for obvious reasons but we can with complete certainty achieve an answer using logic
re: Milkovic Two-Stage Mechanical Oscillator
Hi Martin - the M2SO gets discussed here fairly often, and to this day there is no definitive answer to whether it creates Over Unity or not.
I was very excited when I learned about it - but I have come to consider it not capable of OU. Unfortunately, the inventor comes across as a bit of a fraud. He has had a long time to prove this to the world, and seems to have avoided doing so.
Despite any failings on the part of the inventor, he has a very intriguing, deceptively simple device that seems to flumux even the best brains. Of course the average tunnel-vision physist simply rules it out on the basic of Conservation of Energy - but luckily this is a good forum for exploring taboo subjects such as the problems and paradoxes of some of the conventional wisdom.
My problem with this device is simply that I think the input pendulum is robbed of degrees of angular movement IF the output beam moves downwards. So to keep the pendulum swinging, we need to input energy. The ease of being able to produce high torque pulses with minimal human hand input can be deceptive. An ordinary lever can produce large amounts of torque multiplication. The catch is that you have to move the input side of the lever through a much greater distance. By using a pendulum, we can accumulate energy over time - and even take a break if we feel like it. So it makes it easier to match the load to human muscle power.
I actually think a modern bicycle gearing system with a heavy flywheel and an efficient centrifugal pump would probably outperform the M2SO in pumping water.
I don't understand the claims of over unity. The idea that the pendulum loses weight as it rises is ok - but it also gains weight as it falls. It averages out if the lever is stalled, but if the lever moves down, the pendulum has to rise further/higher than it fell. That requires energy input to get it back up again.
We could pump water without the pendulum, simply by moving a small mass back & forwards along the beam to overbalance it. Apparantly the Egyptions used this method (and still do) to pump water. The operator would walk up and down on a balanced beam. I can see that this would be a simple and fun way to generate high torque for useful work - but there is no free lunch. AFAIK.
On the other hand - there are some very clever people at this forum who have alternative theories that suggest there might be overunity in this device. Just because I can't see it doesn't mean it there isn't something to it.
My theory is that Bessler found a way to obtain more energy from a falling mass than he required to raise it back up again. Once you crack that, making a wheel rotate is trivial. M2SO is very intriquing and I think fairly close to the real secret, but not close enough.
I would love to be proved wrong.
I was very excited when I learned about it - but I have come to consider it not capable of OU. Unfortunately, the inventor comes across as a bit of a fraud. He has had a long time to prove this to the world, and seems to have avoided doing so.
Despite any failings on the part of the inventor, he has a very intriguing, deceptively simple device that seems to flumux even the best brains. Of course the average tunnel-vision physist simply rules it out on the basic of Conservation of Energy - but luckily this is a good forum for exploring taboo subjects such as the problems and paradoxes of some of the conventional wisdom.
My problem with this device is simply that I think the input pendulum is robbed of degrees of angular movement IF the output beam moves downwards. So to keep the pendulum swinging, we need to input energy. The ease of being able to produce high torque pulses with minimal human hand input can be deceptive. An ordinary lever can produce large amounts of torque multiplication. The catch is that you have to move the input side of the lever through a much greater distance. By using a pendulum, we can accumulate energy over time - and even take a break if we feel like it. So it makes it easier to match the load to human muscle power.
I actually think a modern bicycle gearing system with a heavy flywheel and an efficient centrifugal pump would probably outperform the M2SO in pumping water.
I don't understand the claims of over unity. The idea that the pendulum loses weight as it rises is ok - but it also gains weight as it falls. It averages out if the lever is stalled, but if the lever moves down, the pendulum has to rise further/higher than it fell. That requires energy input to get it back up again.
We could pump water without the pendulum, simply by moving a small mass back & forwards along the beam to overbalance it. Apparantly the Egyptions used this method (and still do) to pump water. The operator would walk up and down on a balanced beam. I can see that this would be a simple and fun way to generate high torque for useful work - but there is no free lunch. AFAIK.
On the other hand - there are some very clever people at this forum who have alternative theories that suggest there might be overunity in this device. Just because I can't see it doesn't mean it there isn't something to it.
My theory is that Bessler found a way to obtain more energy from a falling mass than he required to raise it back up again. Once you crack that, making a wheel rotate is trivial. M2SO is very intriquing and I think fairly close to the real secret, but not close enough.
I would love to be proved wrong.
Anything not related to elephants is irrelephant.
@ greendoor
Two things you leave out.
1. The swing of a pendulum with a infinitely stiff string is not an optimum as far as time of swing is concerned. I have expressed this badly but you know what I mean. The optimum arc is a cycloid, not the arc of a circle.
2. The string or pendulum arc undergoes a stress cycle which is doing work. I have never seen any analysis which attempts to consider this aspect of the real world. The string or arm is always considered infinitely rigid (elastic modulus equal to infinity) as far as the mathematical analysis is concerned Milkovic pendulum concentrates this work into the small movement of the lever.
I think you are wrong - though whether I can prove is or not is another matter.
Two things you leave out.
1. The swing of a pendulum with a infinitely stiff string is not an optimum as far as time of swing is concerned. I have expressed this badly but you know what I mean. The optimum arc is a cycloid, not the arc of a circle.
2. The string or pendulum arc undergoes a stress cycle which is doing work. I have never seen any analysis which attempts to consider this aspect of the real world. The string or arm is always considered infinitely rigid (elastic modulus equal to infinity) as far as the mathematical analysis is concerned Milkovic pendulum concentrates this work into the small movement of the lever.
I think you are wrong - though whether I can prove is or not is another matter.
I think experimental proof is the only way to resolve this one. I would love to see a solendoid pulsed pendlum on a beam driving a water pump. I think we could very easily measure the electrical input power to a pulsed solendoid. We could very easily measure work done (litres per minute against vertical head). I really think this is the most elegant way to see if there is any overunity.
I understand one of the problems experienced with the M2SO is harmonic vibrations. Ideally, I would think that the oscillation of the beam could be tuned to match the oscillation of the pendlum so they complement each other. That could be wild if it was tuned right. Alternatively, make the beam very stiff and keep the speed slow. The stress/strain problems involved in this sound right your alley Frank :)
My thought is that unwanted oscillations could be damped with another solenoid to generate power (same as the shaker lights, but used more scientifically to do measurable work). Or perhaps use a positive displacement pump to absorb the oscillations and contribute to the power output being measured.
Actually - I would be very interested in the results of simply pulsing a steel beam into wild resonant oscillation and measuring input vs output. We know from Tesla, and even the bungling Mythbusters, that we can get steel beams to resonate to the point of self destruction. Using the same principle as an electric guitarist generating feedback - a simple input coil, amplifier & output coil feedback loop could automatically get a steel beam resonating wildly. If we then used a permanent magnet and another coil to generate electric current into a load, we could dampen the oscillations at will and measure the output power.
In theory (blindly trusting in COE), output should never exceed input. But resonant devices are very unusal things. For example - if you strike a tiny little tuning fork in a roomfull of grand pianos with the dampers off - you will start every piano resonating in sympathy. I suspect that if we could then dampen all those piano strings and capture the energy, we probably have more energy than existed in the little tuning fork that excited them ... this is just begging for experimentation, but the degree of accuracy required is beyond my budget.
My guess is that a resonating object acts like a big energy sponge at that particular frequency/wavelength.
Imagine a big flat rod of spring steel mounted with a fixed earth end, rising vertically unrestrained. This would be a vertical 'wobbler'. It's going to have a resonant frequency - and any vibrations or movement or wind that hits it in phase with it's natural vibration will help to maintain its oscillation. I imagine this would suck acoustic energy from the environment - probably for miles around if earthed properly. I think a permanent magnet and coil could tap this energy and be used for useful work. Imagine a really tall wobbler lashing about ... could be interesting.
Anyway - I digress. But I really think that Milkovic is throwing out a red herring when he suggests that his progress has been impeded by these harmonic oscillation problems. Oscillations are energy - use it.
I understand one of the problems experienced with the M2SO is harmonic vibrations. Ideally, I would think that the oscillation of the beam could be tuned to match the oscillation of the pendlum so they complement each other. That could be wild if it was tuned right. Alternatively, make the beam very stiff and keep the speed slow. The stress/strain problems involved in this sound right your alley Frank :)
My thought is that unwanted oscillations could be damped with another solenoid to generate power (same as the shaker lights, but used more scientifically to do measurable work). Or perhaps use a positive displacement pump to absorb the oscillations and contribute to the power output being measured.
Actually - I would be very interested in the results of simply pulsing a steel beam into wild resonant oscillation and measuring input vs output. We know from Tesla, and even the bungling Mythbusters, that we can get steel beams to resonate to the point of self destruction. Using the same principle as an electric guitarist generating feedback - a simple input coil, amplifier & output coil feedback loop could automatically get a steel beam resonating wildly. If we then used a permanent magnet and another coil to generate electric current into a load, we could dampen the oscillations at will and measure the output power.
In theory (blindly trusting in COE), output should never exceed input. But resonant devices are very unusal things. For example - if you strike a tiny little tuning fork in a roomfull of grand pianos with the dampers off - you will start every piano resonating in sympathy. I suspect that if we could then dampen all those piano strings and capture the energy, we probably have more energy than existed in the little tuning fork that excited them ... this is just begging for experimentation, but the degree of accuracy required is beyond my budget.
My guess is that a resonating object acts like a big energy sponge at that particular frequency/wavelength.
Imagine a big flat rod of spring steel mounted with a fixed earth end, rising vertically unrestrained. This would be a vertical 'wobbler'. It's going to have a resonant frequency - and any vibrations or movement or wind that hits it in phase with it's natural vibration will help to maintain its oscillation. I imagine this would suck acoustic energy from the environment - probably for miles around if earthed properly. I think a permanent magnet and coil could tap this energy and be used for useful work. Imagine a really tall wobbler lashing about ... could be interesting.
Anyway - I digress. But I really think that Milkovic is throwing out a red herring when he suggests that his progress has been impeded by these harmonic oscillation problems. Oscillations are energy - use it.
I can see what the maths answer must be but the difficulty is in tying it in with the pendulum. One really has to work from both ends like one used to at school when one had looked up the answer book.
The maths is simply something like this:
(x)^2 - (y)^2 = O when x = positive strain energy and y = negative strain energy and the two are in equilibrium. This is the situation for sound and light transmission which are adiabatic and quasi-adiabatic respectively
Now increase x by and decrease y by a.
At the power 1 level the increase balances the decrease but look what happens at the power 2 level.
(x+a)^2 - (y-a)^2 = 2xa +2ya
This is what that guy was talking about when he used the word "exponential".
In short we have an interaction term. The interaction between gravity and the earth acceleration (force) gives us an interaction energy. I think that's what we are getting with the Milkovic Oscillator.
Edit: And I like your grand piano analogy. Good thinking.
The maths is simply something like this:
(x)^2 - (y)^2 = O when x = positive strain energy and y = negative strain energy and the two are in equilibrium. This is the situation for sound and light transmission which are adiabatic and quasi-adiabatic respectively
Now increase x by and decrease y by a.
At the power 1 level the increase balances the decrease but look what happens at the power 2 level.
(x+a)^2 - (y-a)^2 = 2xa +2ya
This is what that guy was talking about when he used the word "exponential".
In short we have an interaction term. The interaction between gravity and the earth acceleration (force) gives us an interaction energy. I think that's what we are getting with the Milkovic Oscillator.
Edit: And I like your grand piano analogy. Good thinking.
re: Milkovic Two-Stage Mechanical Oscillator
All that is happening here is a transfer of energy from one end of the beam to the other.
The pendulum on its' downswing lifts the heavy weight a few inches, then it drops down again and in so doing imparts this energy back into the swinging pendulum.
Back and forth the energy goes, with losses due to friction and windage etc being made up for with a slight push with the hand.
If this device were able to lift the weight in a ratcheting action ever higher with each swing then it would really be doing work.
It doesn't because it cannot.
Graham
The pendulum on its' downswing lifts the heavy weight a few inches, then it drops down again and in so doing imparts this energy back into the swinging pendulum.
Back and forth the energy goes, with losses due to friction and windage etc being made up for with a slight push with the hand.
If this device were able to lift the weight in a ratcheting action ever higher with each swing then it would really be doing work.
It doesn't because it cannot.
Graham
@ graham
You are ignoring what happens to the string, or the quasi-string.
You are also ignoring the force oscillation in the horizontal direction.
In short, your description only applies to relatively small amplitudes of swing in practice and infinitesimal amplitudes in theory.
Good point about the ratcheting action, though. That is what one would have to incorporate to demonstrate excess energy, if such exists. Fortunately there are very sophisticated one way clutches which can be used for this - or so I have understood.
You are ignoring what happens to the string, or the quasi-string.
You are also ignoring the force oscillation in the horizontal direction.
In short, your description only applies to relatively small amplitudes of swing in practice and infinitesimal amplitudes in theory.
Good point about the ratcheting action, though. That is what one would have to incorporate to demonstrate excess energy, if such exists. Fortunately there are very sophisticated one way clutches which can be used for this - or so I have understood.
Last edited by Grimer on Thu May 28, 2009 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
re: Milkovic Two-Stage Mechanical Oscillator
Martin,
If you go to the main discussion board page and type "Veljko" in the 'search all forums' box and press GO, you can see threads where it was discussed before. You can also type "Milkovic" in the box and see those results too.
If you go to the main discussion board page and type "Veljko" in the 'search all forums' box and press GO, you can see threads where it was discussed before. You can also type "Milkovic" in the box and see those results too.
re: Milkovic Two-Stage Mechanical Oscillator
I view the Milkovic pendulum is an atom of the Bessler molecule. It's been suggested that if one could show the MP trapped gravitational energy then one was half way to solving the Bessler conundrum.
As shown in the figure below a perfect pendulum follows a cycloid path, the same path that underlies the transmission of a ray of light as Huygens and the Bernoulli brothers showed long ago. We may think of this path as a path of minimum work. The path for which negative strain energy of the magnetic field balances the positive strain energy of the positive field and disturbances only require the interaction term energy which is vanishingly small when the disturbance is small compared to the total field energies.
Now as can be seen from the following figure the circular path fol owed by the Milkovic pendulum is significantly different from a cycloid path.
For small angles of swing the deviation between the paths is also small and can be ignored for all practical purposes except accurate timekeeping.
But for larger angles the deviation becomes noticeably greater which means that the energies involved, the gravitational and earth reaction energies, are no longer in balance and there must be energy left over somewhere. This unbalanced energy has to appear either in the gravitational field or in the earth reaction field. I believe it appears in the latter.
Now reference has been made to the vertical oscillation. But a moments thought about what happens with large swings shows that for these there is a horizontal oscillation also.
Consider this video by Milkovic.
http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q ... q=milkovic#
At 24 minutes 45 seconds into the video there is a section entitled, "HAND WATER PUMP WITH PENDULUM".
Milkovic comments that the frame is unstable and a better design would have been to have a triangular rather than a rectangular frame.
But the instability is important for understanding the mechanics of the high rotation pendulum. It clearly shows that there is a horizontal oscillation in play as well as a vertical oscillation. Milkovic sees this as energy being wasted as indeed it is because it is not being put to any good purpose in this instance. However, it doesn't have to be a waste of energy. It could be put to the use in a similar way to the vertical oscillation.
Moreover, since there is both a vertical and horizontal oscillation a combination of the right masses and lever arms can give us a rotation of the pendulum pivot point. We know that the system must be anisochronous so it is possible that given a mass at the top of a vertical lever arm in an unstable equilibrium, a phase difference between horizontal and vertical actions could lead to a non-balanced driving force on the pendulum pivot and thereby harness gravitational energy.
As shown in the figure below a perfect pendulum follows a cycloid path, the same path that underlies the transmission of a ray of light as Huygens and the Bernoulli brothers showed long ago. We may think of this path as a path of minimum work. The path for which negative strain energy of the magnetic field balances the positive strain energy of the positive field and disturbances only require the interaction term energy which is vanishingly small when the disturbance is small compared to the total field energies.
Now as can be seen from the following figure the circular path fol owed by the Milkovic pendulum is significantly different from a cycloid path.
For small angles of swing the deviation between the paths is also small and can be ignored for all practical purposes except accurate timekeeping.
But for larger angles the deviation becomes noticeably greater which means that the energies involved, the gravitational and earth reaction energies, are no longer in balance and there must be energy left over somewhere. This unbalanced energy has to appear either in the gravitational field or in the earth reaction field. I believe it appears in the latter.
Now reference has been made to the vertical oscillation. But a moments thought about what happens with large swings shows that for these there is a horizontal oscillation also.
Consider this video by Milkovic.
http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q ... q=milkovic#
At 24 minutes 45 seconds into the video there is a section entitled, "HAND WATER PUMP WITH PENDULUM".
Milkovic comments that the frame is unstable and a better design would have been to have a triangular rather than a rectangular frame.
But the instability is important for understanding the mechanics of the high rotation pendulum. It clearly shows that there is a horizontal oscillation in play as well as a vertical oscillation. Milkovic sees this as energy being wasted as indeed it is because it is not being put to any good purpose in this instance. However, it doesn't have to be a waste of energy. It could be put to the use in a similar way to the vertical oscillation.
Moreover, since there is both a vertical and horizontal oscillation a combination of the right masses and lever arms can give us a rotation of the pendulum pivot point. We know that the system must be anisochronous so it is possible that given a mass at the top of a vertical lever arm in an unstable equilibrium, a phase difference between horizontal and vertical actions could lead to a non-balanced driving force on the pendulum pivot and thereby harness gravitational energy.
- Attachments
-
-
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
re: Milkovic Two-Stage Mechanical Oscillator
Energy can be pumped into a pendulum simply by altering its length in time with the swing as shown rather splendidly by the giant censer (botafumeirio) in the Cathedral of Santiago de Compostela.
For large amplitudes the length of the Milkovic pendulum is changing in a rather subtle way.
This change is over and above changes brought about by movement of the pivot.
The pendulum length is not changing relative to us but it is changing relative to the length of an ideal pendulum, a cycloid pendulum.
Because the time of a pendulum swing can be measured extremely accurately by measuring N swings and dividing by N, it would seem that this provides an ideal way of investigating the exchange of energies between large oscillating weights at the end of horizontal/vertical lever arms and a constant length Milkovic pendulum.
For large amplitudes the length of the Milkovic pendulum is changing in a rather subtle way.
This change is over and above changes brought about by movement of the pivot.
The pendulum length is not changing relative to us but it is changing relative to the length of an ideal pendulum, a cycloid pendulum.
Because the time of a pendulum swing can be measured extremely accurately by measuring N swings and dividing by N, it would seem that this provides an ideal way of investigating the exchange of energies between large oscillating weights at the end of horizontal/vertical lever arms and a constant length Milkovic pendulum.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
re: Milkovic Two-Stage Mechanical Oscillator
Hey,
many thanks Greendoor, Grimer for great toughts about this oscilator. You made me thinking about few things. And Grimer with cykloid swinging you did indeed proved one of my experiment which i wasnt sure what is happening there i didnt realized that it is cykloid path.
I was a bit busy later on building some things and when i was considering milkovic system for really curious it was mainly becouse system of double lever not that much in way how it swings. But am really persuaded that double lever will be part of construction of the wheel.
Many thanks guys.
Martin
many thanks Greendoor, Grimer for great toughts about this oscilator. You made me thinking about few things. And Grimer with cykloid swinging you did indeed proved one of my experiment which i wasnt sure what is happening there i didnt realized that it is cykloid path.
I was a bit busy later on building some things and when i was considering milkovic system for really curious it was mainly becouse system of double lever not that much in way how it swings. But am really persuaded that double lever will be part of construction of the wheel.
Many thanks guys.
Martin