How much Power..?

[ruggerodk]

Can anyone help me with calculating the power of a 10 foot wheel, rotating some 40-50 RPM and having 8 weights of approx 1000 lbs each...?

thanks
ruggero ‚-)

[jim_mich]

We need to know how far the weights move in and out. Also how long it takes for the weight to make the move. Or the degrees of rotation of the wheel during the time the weights make their move.

The center of a weight on a ten foot wheel cannot be at five foot radius because this would put part of the weight outside the wheel. Also a weight cannot move instantly or evenly from its inward position to its outward position because it must accelerate then decelerate in order to make the move. Thus we need to know the exact path that the weights follow. If you know the exact radial dimension from the wheel center to the center of mass of each weight at any given time then you can calculate the torque at any given time. The torque is calculated simply by multiplying weight times horizontal distance from the wheel center. Be sure to use positive and negative numbers depending on which side of center. Calculate the average torque of one weight during one full rotation then multiply by the quantity (8) of weights.

If you calculate the torque every 10º starting at 0º then you will get a slightly different answer than if you start at say 5º. Also the answer will be more accurate if you calculate every 1º rather than every 10º.

The average torque will be foot pounds. Multiply this by two and by Pi then divide by 33000 to get horse power.

This link might help: http://my.voyager.net/~jrrandall/PronyB ... Brake.html

[ruggerodk]

Thanks Jim...that sounds difficult...;-)
I mean, for a non-math guy like me.

Let me try to put the Q in a different way:

How much power do you need to make a 10 foot, 800 lbs wheel turn 40-50 RMP?

regards
ruggero ;-)

[jim_mich]

I'm sorry ruggero, but your question is like asking, "How much power do you need to make a 800 lb car move at 40-50 MPH?" There is no specific answer to your question. You might be able to get the 800 pound car to accelerate up to speed using a 1 HP motor if the aerodynamics and bearings are good so as to limit friction, though it might take a long time. Of course if you use a 200 HP engine you could hit 40-50 MPH in a few seconds.

Also it is one thing to accelerate up to speed but another thing to maintain a speed under load.

As long as a power force is stronger than the load force a wheel (or car) will speed up. When the power force equals the load force then the wheel (or car) will hold its speed. When the power force is less than the load force the wheel (or car) will slow down. The load force of a wheel or car comes only from friction when the wheel is balanced or when the car is on a flat surface.

If the wheel has a load or the car is climbing a hill then we can calculate the HP needed to keep the wheel turning or the car moving up a hill of some particular incline angle.

To calculate the acceleration of a wheel we need to know where the weights are located on the wheel. It take more power to accelerate a wheel if the weight is concentrated near the rim rather than near the hub.

[ruggerodk]

Geecius....How hard can it be to give a straight answer?

Sorry to be hard on you Jim: I'm not talking about accelation, weight displacement or cars or curved roads...not about cows in muddy fields or grainmills in a creek.

HorsePower is a way to say how much power you need to rise a certain weight a certain distance from the ground.

Likewise - what I DO talk about, is if you tie one end of a rope to this horse and the other to a wheel....and then order it to pull like hell...so the wheel turns 40-50 RPM.
Call it an ordinary heavy flywheel, if that helps.(?)
And of course we talk about maintaining the speed...what else the point?
Or imagine a windmill without speculation of sailsize, wingsize, windspeed...but just weight and rpm.

But as I said: I'm no math-guy so maybe I've misunderstood something valuable...

regards
ruggero ;-)

[jim_mich]

But as I said: I'm no math-guy so maybe I've misunderstood something valuable...

Yes, you seem to not understand. Horsepower is force acting through a distance during some particular time span.

HorsePower is a way to say how much power you need to rise a certain weight a certain distance from the ground.

You also need to know how fast you want this to happen. With the proper gearing a mouse can raise the weight, but it will take the mouse a very long time. One the other hand a fine team of horses could raise the same weight very quickly.

You say how fast you want the wheel to be moving once it comes up to speed, but even a mouse could bring the wheel up to a speed of 40 RPM if you give it enough time and proper gearing.

I was trying to educate you to the fact that there are two parts to making any wheel turn. One part is the energy needed to first bring about rotation. Once the wheel is rotating it will continue to rotate so no more energy is needed, except to replace energy lost to friction. But if the wheel is doing some work such as going up hill or pumping water or lifting hammers then the wheel needs the second part of energy. This second part of energy is the "load".

In your description you do not say what the load is. You also do not say how quickly you want the wheel to come up to speed. Also you do not say where the weights are located on the wheel. If the weights are out near the rim then it takes much more energy to bring the wheel up to speed.

In your questions you failed to provide some of the information that is needed to calculate the HP. I suggest you go to a book store and find a book that will teach you these things. Then you will understand.

[ovyyus]

Can anyone help me with calculating the power of a 10 foot wheel, rotating some 40-50 RPM and having 8 weights of approx 1000 lbs each...?

Ruggero, I think it might be easier if you ask, "what is the power of a 5 feet radius 8000lb ring rotating at 45 RPM ?" :)

[greendoor]

The maxium power available of a 5 feet radius 8000lb ring rotating at 45 RPM would only be realised if the ring was brought to a stop. That obviously doesn't happen in a Bessler wheel.

People have done the calculations of the Bessler wheel, based on the load lifted in the amount of time. I believe it was a couple of hundred watts or so - not great. BUT - consider that these were simply models to prove a working principle. Bessler always said it could be scaled up. He had the huge disadvantage of having to hide his mechanism. And making it bi-directional was a compromise to eliminate speculation about fraud.

We can only imagine how much power would be available if we could use modern materials. People have speculated we would need something about the size of a ferris wheel to power a modern house. I personally don't think so, because I believe they are (erroneously) basing calculations on the Bessler facts. I believe the basic principles of generating energy from gravity are freely available from the more generous contributors to this forum, and if you do the maths for yourself you will find some very surprising things can be done. The weight ratios can be manipulated a lot, which would make the wheel heavier and less easy to hide. I won't go into details, because there are people here who can't handle the truth and get a bit nasty. But for this with an open mind, you can find enough hard data in recent threads to work it out, if you don't have a poisoned mind.

[ovyyus]

The maxium power available of a 5 feet radius 8000lb ring rotating at 45 RPM would only be realised if the ring was brought to a stop. That obviously doesn't happen in a Bessler wheel

No one mentioned Bessler's wheel??? Greendoor, please read Ruggero's question.

[greendoor]

No one mentioned Bessler's wheel??? Greendoor, please read Ruggero's question.

Ovyyus - sorry, forgot you were Australian and need to have your hand-held through each and every logical thought process ...

Stating the Obvious for Ovyyus:

This is a Bessler Wheel forum.
Some of us here are hoping for an over-unity wheel that delivers useful power.
Anything less than an over-unity wheel will grind to a halt and henceforth deliver zero power.
It would seem fairly obvious that Ruggero is anticipating how much power could (in theory) be extracted from a somewhat Bessler-esque over-unity-type wheel. Mentioning 8 weights suggests he is thinking Bessler-type wheel.

Bessler always said his wheels could be scaled up. So the mention of 1000 lb weights is not anti-Bessler.

While mass of weights, RPM & diameter are factors, they are not the only factors to consider.

Flywheels can, and are, used to store energy/power. Caterpillar make large battery-less UPS systems based on flywheel storage. Although very efficient, they are under-unity - therefore not a source of power.

The useful power available from an over-unity wheel is going to depend on the working principle, which is highly debateable. We could argue that any self-running wheel actually has infinite efficiency, and some inventors have implied that their wheels could accelerate to the point of self-destruction if not governed.

Nobody really knows. Especially not bitterly frusted inventors, or disinformation agents. (Actually, disinformation agents might know, if there job is to hide the truth, presumeably they know the truth).

[ruggerodk]

Exactly Ovyyus...Thanks ;-)

If you calculate power on a WINDMILL that is actually running, noone ask what kind of load you have. Noone ask about accelation time or how many mize could eat it down.

The only thing interesting is that it KEEP on running...IF the wind keep on blowing at the same strenght (everything equal).
As long as it runs everybody is happy.
You now have a heavy dynamo turning continously, a turning that represents a value of energy.

It seems like some people in here are keen to state, that it is impossible to calculate the power output of a continously running powerplant water TURBINE: Because it is impossible to know exactly from where each single watermolecule originated (which river or mountain) and in what order or pattern they are entering the turbine valvet...

To Greendoor:
I'm not saying that this is an infinite power source: I specifically said 40-50 RPM...continously.
I mentioned the weights (mass), because it has something to do with how much power it represents.
Then call it a simple "heavy ring", as ovyyus suggested, if that makes it easier to comprehend and forget about any weights.
The "working principle" is not an issue for calculating power output: I'ts an INPUT question which is not on trial here.

And to Jim:
I'm a graphic designer.
If you ask me to draw a picture of a flower – I'll properly give you a quick drawing (If I got the time).
I don't expect you are willing to have me lecture you on materials issues, drawing technique, perspective, color etc. so that you can do-it-yourself buddy..Not to forget that you might be pis....off if I start to ask you what kind of flower you might want, from what season, from a livefield or in a garden, daylight or by night or by spotlight...you get the picture.

Regards

ruggero ;-)

[greendoor]

Ruggero - I think you need to study some basic physics first. Not meaning to be rude, but you don't understand the concept of Power yet. Speed is one factor, but it tells us nothing about power.

You have described a flywheel - nothing more or less. Mass & RPM. Ignoring friction losses - a flywheel, once accelerated to speed, will stay at that constant speed. As such, it is a store of Energy - it has Power to do Work. But the only way to use that Power is to decelerate the wheel. The only way to put power back into the wheel is to Accelerate the wheel.

So what you have described, with constant RPM, simply tells us that whatever power is being extracted from the wheel is being simultaneously input back into the wheel. This is Unity - what comes out is what goes in.

So in answer to your question: maybe zero Watts of Power is going in, and Zero Watts of Power is being taken out. Or maybe 1000 Watts of Power is going in and 1000 Watts of Power is being taken out. It is impossible to tell, from the parameters you have given us.

In engineering, a flywheel is frequently used as a smoothing device. It adds no power, and it looses very little power. But it can smooth out a jerky input source (e.g. a crankshaft from the pistons of an internal combustion engine).

[ruggerodk]

Greendoor:
Yes, I called it a flywheel.
But maybe my english is too bad.

Call it a Grindstone-wheel or a Flintstone-wheel.
I don't care: It's round, it's heavy, it's put on an axle...and you need some power to make it turn continously.

How much?

You say that is impossible for 'science' to calculate?

...The only way to put power back into the wheel is to Accelerate the wheel...

...what comes out is what goes in.

...It is impossible to tell.

regards
ruggero ;-)

[greendoor]

Calm down Ruggero - I have given you your answer already!

The answer is this:

You need to input exactly as much Power as you are taking out - plus any losses (air resistance, heat, sound, magnetic eddy currents, bearing friction etc).

So the answer is: it depends on your load.

Honest.

[greendoor]

Here is a simple analogy to help you understand.

A shop has a refrigerator that can hold 100 can of Coke.
As soon as a can of Coke is sold, a new can of Coke is replaced.

This represents your flywheel (storage mechanism) that has a constant RPM.

How many cans of Coke does that store sell in a day? We know that the refrigerator always holds exactly 100 cans of Coke ... so can Science tell me the answer to this simple problem?