the clues that fit and the unknown.

[ruggerodk]

"Weights applied force at right angles to the axis" Besler himself why ask me?

Sorry IR – I was asking about the PATH not the angle of attack...

Have u ever seen the science drawing of a forth dimention cube ? check it out, if you were in the forth dimention the drawing would look like a cube does to us in the third dimention.

Do you have a link to some drawing of this, please? It sounds very tempting..;-)

a seesaw kind of lever is always drawn in 2 dimentions but if u go to the park u can sit on it AKA three D. now put it in a Besslers wheel so its action works through 360 digrees plane.

Yaah..I've done that! A wheel IS a seesaw where the endpoints (seen from sideways) allways follow a vertical straight path and not an ordinary seesaw arc...I asked you in what way it differ from the seesaw kind of lever.

So..I hear you say that you connect two ends of a seesaw to two separated circles, one on each end of the axleshaft...?

Or are you talking about a single stick turning 360 around the axis...?

regards
ruggero ;-)[/quote]

[ruggerodk]

IR:

I'm not sure I understand what you're hinting at when you say 'forth dimension drawing'.

Could you expalin futher, please.

ruggero ;-)

[Michael]

There are a couple of clues that really bother me here that i may not
be understanding or other people have taken them out of context?,
by this i mean they are not clues at all and could be sarcasm used
by Bessler.


This clue bothers me below.

==========================================
Clue

So then, a work of this kind of
craftsmanship has, as its basis of motion, many separate pieces
of lead. These come in pairs, such that, as one of them takes up
an outer position, the other takes up a position nearer the axle.
Later, they swap places, and so they go on and on changing
places all the time. (This principle is in fact the one that Wagner
said he owed to me - but I was quite wrongly implicated, as I'd
never informed anyone about the matter.).
==========================================

It seems as though this is sarcasm from Bessler because he gives
the description but then says pretty much that Wagner says Bessler
told him this principle but then Bessler denies any knowledge of it.

Chad the way I read that was Bessler is saying that, in a way, his wheel operates like that. Bessler says Wagner says that that is how Bessler's wheel ran, but it is a wrong implication because Bessler never said anything to Wagner about it. So it's all guesswork on Wagners behalf.

[Irish Oracle]

Sorry IR – I was asking about the PATH not the angle of attack...

Its a wheel the path must be a circle.

Do you have a link to some drawing of this, please? It sounds very tempting..;-)

I will look for some

Yaah..I've done that! A wheel IS a seesaw where the endpoints (seen from sideways) allways follow a vertical straight path and not an ordinary seesaw arc...I asked you in what way it differ from the seesaw kind of lever.

This is the trick of besslers wheel, he created a PM lever,it differs because its round. The lever cant follow a vertical straight path in a wheel?

So..I hear you say that you connect two ends of a seesaw to two separated circles, one on each end of the axleshaft...?

I dont understand?

Or are you talking about a single stick turning 360 around the axis...?

NO

[Irish Oracle]

I'm not sure I understand what you're hinting at when you say 'forth dimension drawing'.

Could you expalin futher, please.

ruggero ;-)

Drawing is 2D, the wheel is 3D, its always out of balance in real time.

[jim_mich]

Bessler's Gera (1st) wheel was only about 4 inches thick. The internal mechanisms were hidden by wood boards covering the wheel. This left maybe three inches or less of width inside. After you allow for the width of the weight there was not enough room inside the wheel for any 3rd dimension movement.

[AB Hammer]

Irish Oracle

I am getting the funny feeling, you are looking for some help to build it. If so there are a few people here who can do this. if it is truly a possible runner. But there are several of us that can look at the design and tell if it is worth a try or not. Ralph Lortie is well noted for building for others and there is myself on occasion. We first examine the design, then tell weather we think it will work or not and why we think so. If it is like, or similar to someone else's design we will tell you and then you and they may want to team up . We keep all secrets as needed.

At this time I have a few wheels to build but they won't be done until after Aug. due to my armour season. And I only have one that I will finish before, which is of my own design.

[Irish Oracle]

Bessler's Gera (1st) wheel was only about 4 inches thick. The internal mechanisms were hidden by wood boards covering the wheel. This left maybe three inches or less of width inside. After you allow for the width of the weight there was not enough room inside the wheel for any 3rd dimension movement.

Hi JIM,
yes the wheel was only 4 inches wide but that is already 3D. The movement is only in 1 direction but the wheel exists in our 3d world. With that said, Bessler solved the problem than built a wheel around it. Everyone is making eggshells while bessler was making omlets.

[Irish Oracle]

I am getting the funny feeling, you are looking for some help to build it. If so there are a few people here who can do this. if it is truly a possible runner. But there are several of us that can look at the design and tell if it is worth a try or not. Ralph Lortie is well noted for building for others and there is myself on occasion. We first examine the design, then tell weather we think it will work or not and why we think so. If it is like, or similar to someone else's design we will tell you and then you and they may want to team up . We keep all secrets as needed.

At this time I have a few wheels to build but they won't be done until after Aug. due to my armour season. And I only have one that I will finish before, which is of my own design

OK thanks for the offer.

This is the progress so far, I have bearings, wood, tools and time. I will build a one foot high wheel, I estimate it will take 1-2 weeks. Once its done I will show it.

[Chad]

There are a couple of clues that really bother me here that i may not
be understanding or other people have taken them out of context?,
by this i mean they are not clues at all and could be sarcasm used
by Bessler.


This clue bothers me below.

==========================================
Clue

So then, a work of this kind of
craftsmanship has, as its basis of motion, many separate pieces
of lead. These come in pairs, such that, as one of them takes up
an outer position, the other takes up a position nearer the axle.
Later, they swap places, and so they go on and on changing
places all the time. (This principle is in fact the one that Wagner
said he owed to me - but I was quite wrongly implicated, as I'd
never informed anyone about the matter.).
==========================================

It seems as though this is sarcasm from Bessler because he gives
the description but then says pretty much that Wagner says Bessler
told him this principle but then Bessler denies any knowledge of it.

Chad the way I read that was Bessler is saying that, in a way, his wheel operates like that. Bessler says Wagner says that that is how Bessler's wheel ran, but it is a wrong implication because Bessler never said anything to Wagner about it. So it's all guesswork on Wagners behalf.

Maybe we are on the same hymn sheet here Micheal or maybe not lol

To me it doesn't appear to be a description by Bessler of his wheel and it seems it was a description/Geuss by Wanger, so to me this clue should be dismissed as a clue because its being portrayed as a description of Bessler's wheel by Bessler himself when it appears it isnt.

Surely this can only hinder our efforts to build a running wheel because if we are trying to find a machine that fits that description then were being led the wrong way?.

[Irish Oracle]

Hi Chad

These come in pairs, such that, as one of them takes up
an outer position, the other takes up a position nearer the axle.
Later, they swap places, and so they go on and on changing
places all the time

This is an exact discription of the solution.

[justsomeone]

IO. How many weights will you use in your design?

[Irish Oracle]

IO. How many weights will you use in your design?

it dosent matter

[silverfox]

Well Irish...

Since it seems we are both in the same position at the moment and similarly minded in our intent, we shall see where this conversation goes even if others do not quite grasp it or must guess at certain parts of it...hmmm?

I secured the makings for the weights in my own model just this morning and they are, in fact, to be cylindrical as a matter of necessity and in order to reduce a unweildy complexity that would otherwise be required when it is most assuredly is not.

Coil springs are also not "optional" but a most direct reguirement if you do not wish to needlessly waste and compromise the motion the weights can directly impart to their mounts, which is just as critical to their function as their over-all travel is.

Those plus your lack of regard for the need for the weights to both impinge on others and in turn be impinged upon in their travels all indicate to me that you are either suffering from a very bad case of wishfull thinking in terms of your own immnent success or else you are indeed on a most deliberate "fishing expedition" to try and remedy problems that simply should not exist if you genuinely understood what you seemingly say you do.

[ruggerodk]

Its a wheel the path must be a circle.

Not neccesarily: it could be an oval, egg shape, a triangle, a seesaw straight up-down, a slide, a swing...

I believe you by that statement say, that the path is a circle following same fixed radius all 360?

This is the trick of besslers wheel, he created a PM lever,it differs because its round. The lever cant follow a vertical straight path in a wheel?

A circular ring-kind-of lever with NO straight lines, (curved, that is) ...is that what you do? Or do you mean many straight levers connected together in a 360 circular path (hexagon, octagon etc)?

If you look at a normal seesaw from a sideview (2D or 3D), with the pivot in the middle...the path of each end will follow a circular path (curved).
If you look from the endview, the path will follow a straight up-down line (2D).
If you have a cylindar or drum and connect the circular ends of the drum (i.e. the drum's skin) diagonally with a rod – viewed from the round ends the path is circular...but seen sideways the ends of the rod will seem to follow a straight up-down line (which is actually the vertical line of the drumskin seen from a sideview).

So..I hear you say that you connect two ends of a seesaw to two separated circles, one on each end of the axleshaft...?

I dont understand?

The cylindar I just described...a diagonal rod.

Hmm, i still don't see what you mean with 'the forth dimension'. Can you be more clear, please?

ruggero ;-)