Bessler's 2 Wheels

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Stewart
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Post by Stewart »

ovyyus wrote:FWIW, the "warped board" translation is incorrect and has been updated (by Stewart) to 'short board'.
Wolff refers to the boards as "trabeculae normales" (Latin). 'Trabeculae' is diminutive plural of 'trabs' which means a beam or plank etc., so we get small beams/planks. 'normales' is an adjective (normalis/normale) which means "right angled, made according to a carpenter's square". Wolff is describing small boards at the periphery of the wheel jutting into the wheel at right-angles to the tangent of the wheel. The closest MT figure based on what Wolff thought he witnessed would be MT18. Here's my translation of the sentence so you can see the context....

"... In fact in the periphery [of the wheel] here and there small 'normal' beams were attached, which on rotation of the wheel ~it was evident~ were quite clearly perceived to be hit by weights. I have noticed those small beams [while] looking through a crack, although from a distance. ..."

(NB: Wolff had crossed out the words between the ~ symbols)

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 3533#63533

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re: Bessler's 2 Wheels

Post by daxwc »

Stewart quote:
The closest MT figure based on what Wolff thought he witnessed would be MT18.
It is my personal opinion that to make the wheel bi-directional Bessler had to turn the drum case into a flywheel. If it was any part of the prime mover, it most certainly would have been better hidden from spying eyes. Although Bessler’s reaction of destroying the wheel might seem suspect as to it being more important, I believe his erratic demeanour and extreme paranoia puts it right in line with his actions.

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re: Bessler's 2 Wheels

Post by Trevor Lyn Whatford »

Hi Alan,

there is a big plus in Jims design that no one seems to have picked up on! I am not shore if Jim is aware of it!

As the reservoir is compressed there is a negative backwards force, but in Jims layout this force will be a plus as it will be pushing down on the descending side or with rotation, depending on the compression timing as it moves! this will help drive the wheel! Jims design still has many problem to solve but with that plus it stands a better chance.

I still think if it works it will have a low RPM as there is a cut of point when CF will kill the leverage! I design my lever system not to exceed 8 RPM!

When I get some time I would like to do a bit more R&D to find out at what Point CF kills Leverage, As I believe that given the RPM of Besslers Wheel we should be able to rule out leverage to narrow the search!



Regards Trevor
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re: Bessler's 2 Wheels

Post by AB Hammer »

Trevor

I did a quick modification of one of his pictures of how it will look. IMO
Now look at MT 66 to 69 and think of how much leverage not_me and what Bessler has in the MT's. The MT's have more leverage to move fluids. And this one will end up with to much weight below the 3 to 9 keel line and not enough to lift it over.
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re: Bessler's 2 Wheels

Post by Trevor Lyn Whatford »

Hi Alan,

Perhaps I have not explained my view will, I believe that fluid weight shifts are possible there are problems though but by changing numbers of levers and ratios there can be a win scenario and I do see a plus in the direction Jim intends to compress them.

Read my posts on this thread (as a force of 80 kg to move 5 litres)
and what I said to Greendoor!

With a 5 kg weight would need at least a leverage ratio of 16 to 1
with a 1 kg weight would need at least a leverage ratio of 80 to 1 so yes Jims lever system would not work in that format! but with what I know of modden Hydraulics and control systems I believe I could make the reservoirs rotate the system,

Example only
By using the multi lever phenomenon lever system ( the more levers added the more balanced the wheel becomes percentage wise (40 levers with a 1 kg weight and a 4 to 1 leverage ratio) I believe I could make it work! scaled up though! it would not be cost effective though! and that is why I moved on from lever driven out of balance fluid weight shift and now use balanced levers and out of balance force!

Are lever driven fluid weight shift possible yes! and with plus reservoir they would work better! would I build one with levers no! would I build one with my compression wheels designs yes and soon!

Sorry Alan I am in error by not being more clear with my posts!

Regards Trevor

Edit, I may have got that all wrong in view of my next post as I thought I would look at the MT Drawings becuase some thing has been nagging at me about this whole thread could Bessler have invented the hydraulic motor?
I know my levers driving hydraulic motor design would work! could there be a more simple way? Edit wrong post I meant I was wrong about CF killing off leverage! sorry.
Last edited by Trevor Lyn Whatford on Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:33 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: re: Bessler's 2 Wheels

Post by not_me »

daxwc wrote:Stewart quote:
The closest MT figure based on what Wolff thought he witnessed would be MT18.
It is my personal opinion that to make the wheel bi-directional Bessler had to turn the drum case into a flywheel. If it was any part of the prime mover, it most certainly would have been better hidden from spying eyes. Although Bessler’s reaction of destroying the wheel might seem suspect as to it being more important, I believe his erratic demeanour and extreme paranoia puts it right in line with his actions.

tks
Hi Daxwc,
One way to make it bi-directional is to let the levers have a full range of motion.
Then have the weights lined upo to the boards at right angles if no leverage is used.
Anyway, that is one possibilty.


Jim
edited to correct spelling
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re: Bessler's 2 Wheels

Post by Trevor Lyn Whatford »

Hi all,

Look at this, LOL! LOL! LOL!

What if the head of water stands almost still and by applying a force against the reservoir pushes the wheel around!

Just Like the principle shown in MT 56, MT 57, MT 58, MT 59 What do you have before you MT 55 LOL!!!!!!

Edit,You push the fluid up and then the fluid pushes you, you push the fluid then the fluid pushes you, and so on! I have not had time to think it all through as you can imagine I was in a rush to post it!

Regards Trevor
Last edited by Trevor Lyn Whatford on Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:36 am, edited 5 times in total.
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re: Bessler's 2 Wheels

Post by ovyyus »

I'll have whatever Trevor is on :D
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re: Bessler's 2 Wheels

Post by Trevor Lyn Whatford »

Hi all,

It looks better than I first thought, as all the forces are working with rotation!

Look at the counter weight on MT 13! the water is doing the same only better as the head of water when pushed up would push the wheel around as it move back to it COG, Fletcher said Bessler said every thing moves with the wheel! but the problem with that what could it push against? could this be it!

But here is another thought, get a cup of tea ( well I am British) then stir it and you will see a good run on! I think there a point when the whole set of forces start to really get it together!

I am thinking on my feet so it may not make to much sense but there maybe some in all this so let kick it about for a bit!

I need a rest because my haed is spinning so I go have a think about it.

Regards Trevor

Edit, what if you start to push against a swirling fluid the has velocity and a bit of out of balance? I may be getting ahead of my self here so I will stop!
Last edited by Trevor Lyn Whatford on Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: re: Bessler's 2 Wheels

Post by not_me »

Trevor Lyn Whatford wrote:Hi all,

Look at this, LOL! LOL! LOL!

What if the head of water stands almost still and by applying a force against the reservoir pushes the wheel around!

Just Like the principle shown in MT 56, MT 57, MT 58, MT 59 What do you have before you MT 55 LOL!!!!!!

Edit,You push the fluid up and then the fluid pushes you, you push the fluid then the fluid pushes you, and so on! I have not had time to think it all through as you can imagine I was in a rush to post it!

Regards Trevor
Hi Trevor,
By jove, I've think he's got it. Is it something you put in your tea or is it granny's secret ingredient ? roflmao
It does depend on how smoothly everything works.
I think Mt 69 is another drawing to look at. It could be considered to showing water being pumped from bottom to top.
by the way, it could be considered a self priming water wheel, no river needed !
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re: Bessler's 2 Wheels

Post by Trevor Lyn Whatford »

Hi Jim,
if I have picked up on some thing here its because of the forum bouncing around all these thoughts on this thread and all the other threads there is such a diversity of thought here you cannot help thinking, there is a lot of work to be done to prove it! but if you had not put your design forward would I have came up with this?

Let hope the forum can put Bessler Wheel to rest RIP with a bonus of free energy,

Thanks Jim,

Regards Trevor

Edit, if it only one step closer it is one step in the right direction!
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re: Bessler's 2 Wheels

Post by bluesgtr44 »

Thought maybe some of you would find this interesting within the confines of the discussion.....D.T., pg. 219...J. Collins
In a machine such as mine, on the other hand, the motive force, the ability to move itself and drive other objects makes up the FORM of the device, without which its framework is just any old heap of material, which has completely lost its essence. To cause the machine to stop requires the application of a greater external force, and can be accomplished without difficulty whenever one requires it, e.ga. for the machines longer conservation. Such a cessation can also occur through the wearing-out or breaking of the machines parts. The first is a "moral accident", the second a "material accident". As an example of the ideas I am discussing, coincide the case of two small metal spheres, one of iron and one of lead. For both of them, their FORM consists in their regular sphericity. But we find that, placed in a furnace, one loses its shape quicker that the other. Therefore the greater or lesser "meltability" of such spheres is not the result of "sphericalness" - common to both - but to the physical characteristics of the two materials. And it is this "material accident" which is the FORMAL CAUSE of the difference.
A bit of a lead up to that last paragraph....he was defending the notion that his machine was and should be deemed perpetual, not eternal....in that it would simply take one of these situations to stop it from turning. All else being equal, the principle that "drives" his machine is...in and of itself...a perpetuating force.

Same book just the next paragraph.....
And so I must stress that if a Perpetual MOtion machine of the type I have described really is in conformity with the demands of the most eminent mathematicians and engineers, thin it really deserves the Perpetual Motion appellation no matter how fragile the material from which it is consturcted. The case is no different from that of a leadin or even waxen sphere. They are both as perfectly deserving of the description "sphere" as is an iron one, despite the fact that the latter will withstand fire and other attacks better than the two former. For form gives the essence of the thing.
Make of these what you will, but he's definitely trying to explain something here. Right off the bat he seems to separate a "framework" from that which provides the driving force. Twice he describes this FORM as the essence of the device. I wouldn't dig too deep in what he used as descriptions simply because he was not one to give much of anything away. I do think he is trying to convey a simple understanding that his device would maintain perpetuity as long as this FORM is maintained.


Steve
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re: Bessler's 2 Wheels

Post by Trevor Lyn Whatford »

Hi Steve,

Do you think there is a connection By melting down the weights into a fluid that one could move quicker than the other?

Or is it that one weight could be turned into a fluid?

Alan if you see this given you work in metals when melting lead does it turn into fluid around the out rim first?

More like wishful thinking on my part!

Here's A thought, what if there are no levers just a heavy balls ( spheres )rolling over the reservoirs, and the reservoir was one big soft one, as the ball started to roll it would push the water a long which may give the wheel thrust in the opposite direction keeping the ball or wheel come hamster running! Edit, do not over fill the reservoir and leave some air in and it could keep most of the water on one side, or some sort of non-return valve! perhaps I maybe getting carried away or should be, any white coats out there!

Food for thought though, cheers Steve thanks for that! regards Trevor
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re: Bessler's 2 Wheels

Post by bluesgtr44 »

Hey Trevor....
Do you think there is a connection By melting down the weights into a fluid that one could move quicker than the other?

Or is it that one weight could be turned into a fluid?
As I said before, I wouldn't put too much literal translation to what he is presenting. The cryptic approach is very prevalent with this guy and he just doesn't give anything away simply.

The shape of things could be made to change with speed also. Like discs instead of sphere's, they could be made to expand outwards as they increase in velocity and then brought back inwards as they slow down. This would alter the FORM of the disc in they same vein as would melting them, just a different application.

The part that intrigues me a bit....and Fletch had pointed this out some time ago, is that he does show a separation between that which is a framework and the actual driving force that propels it.


Steve
Finding the right solution...is usually a function of asking the right questions. -A. Einstein
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re: Bessler's 2 Wheels

Post by ruggerodk »

Dear Steve and Trevor,

It could also mean that Bessler was just trying to stress, that his machine deserves the name Perpetuum Mobile - no matter how big it was, no matter how fast and powerfull it was, no matter what material it was made of and no matter what the prime mover was.
If anything could stand up to the definition of PM, it would be....a PM.

His wording reminds me of Platon and Socrates' discussion on the premises for matter being named a horse, a tiger or a chair...;-)
Maybe Bessler even read their works....

regards
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