Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[Roxaway59]

I hear what you are saying Robinhood and I will attempt to keep a certain amount of accuracy on the block diagrams.

I've been suffering with a bad migraine over the past day or so but later when my head clears a bit I want to post something that I think is interesting.

Its related to something I've already posted and discussed and to block diagram 3.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

I will have to delay my post till tomorrow because something has come up that a must attend to.

Graham

[Fletcher]

OK her goes .. here is screen grab of 1 sim I made of an extreme OOB one-way wheel at starting position - I have altered it is MS Paint to show the approximate System CoM / CoG .. The brown circle is for where just the weights CoM would be - the yellow circle for when the background Wheel carcass is included in that System CoM calculation ..

Things of note to understand it/them ..

This sim is set to pause at 1.5 turns ( half-way between 1 & 2 turns recorded ) @ 50 RPM, and the wheel diameter is 2 meters - wheel carcass mass and weights ( 8 of ) mass is inputted via TOTAL mass kg attributed to the carcass and weights as per the RHS Inputs ..

* I have used 100 kg for the wheel carcass as sufficiently heavy to necessitate B. removing the internal weights for translocation ( i.e. could have filled a box ) - in the sim I have added 3 grey circles for the carcass mass distribution so it properly registers the wheel carcass inertia as it would be - because WM treats rotational inertia as a point mass otherwise which would effect the RPM ..

** because it is a 'magical' perfect sim with no frictions etc when the weights cross the X-axis ( CW rotation ) their masses are magically changed via the Inputs - iow's they swap values crossing the X-axis to give a perfect overbalance scenario ..

*** the System CoM / CoG always circulates and is located to the RHS of the axle ( center of rotation ) i.e. it never crosses the X-axis vertical to give any Negative Torque - IF it did it would NOT be able to Start At Any Position Stopped At .. the System CoM track is not a full circle or ovoid shape and more like a 'D' shape because the weights masses are magically and instantly changed as per the Inputs and transitioning across the X-axis requirement ..

**** there are effectively 2 vertical lifts for each weight per rotation => 0.5 meters x 2 = TOTAL 1.0 meter of lift required, and achieves 50 RPM in 1.5 turns ..

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Sims and animations to follow later today when available to do so ..

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[Fletcher]

Here is the first sim - one-way wheel finding 50 RPM in 1 turn from a standing start, in 2.4 seconds - if I had not paused it after 1 revolution it would continue to accelerate ..

* Remembering that on the RHS of the axle the Blue Weights are maximum kg while on the LHS the Red Weights are also maximum kg, opposite sides near zero kg ..

Total of weights is 128 kg or about 16 kg each .. sim attached ..

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[Fletcher]

Here is the second sim - one-way wheel finding 50 RPM in 2 turns from a standing start, in 4.8 seconds - if I had not paused it after 2 revolutions it would continue to accelerate ..

Total of weights is 47 kg or about 5.9 kg each .. sim attached ..

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[Fletcher]

Here is the third sim - one-way wheel finding 50 RPM in 1.5 turns from a standing start, in 3.6 seconds - if I had not paused it after 1.5 revolutions it would continue to accelerate ..

Total of weights is 68 kg or about 8.5 kg each .. sim attached ..

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In everybody's opinions what conclusions do we think we can draw from these " ideal " extreme OOB one-way wheel sims compared to the Draschwitz one-way wheel ?

Graham .. can you or somebody try simming something similar with Algodoo ? ..

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[Robinhood46]

I am up early today because i am going off into the civilised world again, needs must.
I would have thought it is possible to have a go with Algodoo, but it would need a modification, to the modification, that i put in the script menu to change collision layer (and colour), when i do so to represent a third dimension shift of a weight or locking releasing mechanism. It will probably take me a while to get my head around it, but i think it's doable. Just need to swap the mass instead of the collision layer. If it is as easy as it sounds, it will be a piece of cake? but don't get your hopes up too much.
I think Graham would probably do a better job than me, but i will be more than happy do either help him, or have a go myself when i return late morning or early afternoon.
Maybe if someone would explain what i need to do to share my scenes, i could then sort out the script modifications, if i succeed, and pass the scene to him so he can do the stuff he is better at than i am. I will be honest Fletcher i don't know what you hope to achieve by comparing WM and Algodoo, but i will be more than happy to have a go when i return.

[Fletcher]

Appreciated RH - have a good trip into town ..

The idea is to have both sim programs tell their stories with the same or similar workaround "cheats" in action ( i.e. illogical, not bound by known mechanical principles ) - to highlight the inescapable and bizarre weight lifting and GPE restoration required in a true mechanical one-way wheel achieving and holding at 50 RPM in a paltry 1 to 2 turns - and starting from any position with torque ..

Just one sim in Algodoo should do for a comparison, say getting up to 50 RPM in 1 and a 1/2 turns .. if you feel enthused then the others can be tackled but not necessary imo ..

[Robinhood46]

I finished my coffee and i'm off.
I will be back in about 3 to 4 hours and i'll give it a go.
Here is the video i shared showing the script menu modifications, which will need some modifications, if anyone else wants to have a go before i get back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M82sNK4Jpis&t=113s

[Tarsier79]

This set of sims are some of my favorite. The amount of energy required to "teleport" 16kg up 1.5m shows us an approximation of what Besslers prime mover achieved. Ultimately, he was able to lift significant weight for "free". You would think any effect displaying this amount of "free energy" should be fairly easy to see if you came across it...

[johannesbender]

Another point of interest , as demonstrated by these sims , for a wheel with a principle of operation having a COM displaced to one side and weights rising and falling , the COM cannot remain in one exact position if it were to apply torque force and move the wheel , it is not conceivable for it to stay in one exact position and be responsible for "pushing down" on a wheel with moving weights , but perhaps i am wrong ...

[Robinhood46]

I will be back in about 3 to 4 hours and i'll give it a go.

Bloody hell !!!
I wasn't expecting it to go that well.

This is more of a demonstration, of the sort thing i can do with Algodoo, than to give you exactly what you want Fletcher.
It is a lot easier than i thought, so fire away, tell me exactly what it is you want me to do, and I'll be happy to oblige.
Make it as precise as you can, with how many, how heavy and how far you want the weights, to get us started, and then we can adjust to get exactly what you want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nptpVaZRYaI

[Roxaway59]

Its just as well that I had to delay this post because having more time to think about it helps.

Its going to be another one of those posts that is not easy for me to write.

A long time ago before I started using WM2D I would come up with certain ideas that were unworkable.

Sometimes I would be certain I was on to something before realising that the massively stuck out CoG had an equal and opposite force.

Typically I would feel surprise that no one had apparently thought of it before until I realised it didn’t work and that it almost certainly had been thought of numerous times.

This is something you very often find with fairly simple ideas because Besslers wheel is a bit like the lottery. Most people get a few numbers right now and then but only very few people get close to getting all of them right.

And by numbers I am referring to key parts of the machine.

Basically what I am saying is something that deep down all of us know. That there have to be ideas that we are playing with that are the same ideas that are on Besslers wheel but are incomplete and like a petrol engine that’s missing its spark plugs its just not going to work without the missing piece or pieces.

When that happens we MUST realise it. Its vital to realise it.

In fact I would even go as far to say that if we could only get that one thing right we would be closer to solving this mystery than ever.

That’s because it would only be just a matter of weeks or months before we stumbled on the right approach.

Here is the kind of design that will be familiar to most where the CoG is kept well to the right.

[Roxaway59]

With this design the weights never perceptibly fall and there is no oscillation taking place.

Earlier on I posted a simpler version of this idea below that Fletcher simulated in WM2D.

[Roxaway59]

Both these designs have one thing in common they attempt to move the CoG well to the right.

The first one does this but massive negative feedback and friction comes into play holding it back.

The second one only appears to move the CoG to the right and is basically an oscillator. I think the second one however does have certain possibilities and it could be that Bessler used something like this with modifications enabling the weights to not just oscillate but move the CoG and overbalance the wheel.

One reason I think this is because it has become clear that the overbalancing on Besslers wheel is ridiculous and its so blatant it is almost as though it is mocking us.

So what ever the design was it had to have the ability to move the weights far out in my opinion. So I think we have to be looking at designs like this but with modifications.

Those modifications would have to incorporate some kind of impact and no doubt elements that are on the toy page like the storks bill.

Just to finish I would like to post two slightly different versions of the above design.

The first only has one artificial horizon pendulum and the second has four that are all tuned differently so that the individual mechanisms sway more out of phase. These designs act in an odd way in Algodoo and the very often have to be run at a certain speed before they will increase their speed when the motor is turned off.

Bear in mind that I do not think these designs are any use without being significantly modified.



Graham