The Solution To Bessler's Wheel

[Stewart]

He contradicts himself so many times that it is hard to fathom the truth.
And the more he rants at the unbelievers who continually wind him up, the more his clues become blurred. It seems to me the only writings that resemble any shred of truth are those he wrote when the critics were quiet.

I disagree - I'm not aware of any contradictions in Bessler's writings. It seems to me you're struggling because of inaccurate translations:

"It revolves, but without other wheels inside or outside,
and without weights, wind, or springs".
- Bessler

This translation is missing two vital words which clarify the intended meaning. Here's the original text from Chapter 46 of AP:

Laufft ohne in- und außre Räder/
Zimbel-Gewicht/ Wind und Uhr-Feder/ &c.

[It] runs without internal and external wheels,
cymbal-weight, wind and clock-spring, &c.

cymbal-weight is a reference to weights that are attached to a rope/chain and they power a device as they fall under gravity - many devices were powered like this in Bessler's time. There is no contradiction here as Bessler says in various places that his wheels contain weights, but they are not used in the manner I've just described. Bessler even stresses the importance of the weights in his wheel in DT, saying that they are not simply attached in this manner, but are in fact themselves the perpetuum mobile or essential & constituent parts of it.

Again, with the part about the springs, there is a word missing which removes any contradiction. The original text has the word 'Uhr' (clock) in front of 'Feder" (spring). So he is saying that his wheel is not powered by a wound spring that was found in many clockwork devices in Bessler's time and require re-winding - however, this obviously does not rule out the use of compression or torsion springs as a temporary energy store, for example.

"Accordingly, this wheel consists of an external wheel (or drum) for raising weights"
- Bessler

As for that quote there is no part of the original text that says "for raising weights"!
It's no wonder you're finding the whole thing rather confusing!

Stewart

P.S. - Fletcher, I'll try and respond about the 'swinging/momentum' thing soon, only I'm having major problems using the site at the moment - in fact it's been a problem for a number of weeks now. Scott - is there anything you can do? I see other people have posted to say that they have also been having problems. The site is very slow to access and sometimes I can't get a page up at all. Just trying to tack this P.S. to my post has taken me ages!

[DrWhat]

Brilliant Stewart, why didn't I know this before!? I assumed the meaning but this really clarifies it.

[KAS]

Stewart,

Thanks for the explanation.
Sometimes it gets very confusing trying to decipher the meaning of his writings. There appears to have been so many attempts to translate the text, all with different interpretations, It gets very confusing.

If I have trod on the toes of any of the translators by quoting what is considered to be inaccurate transcription, I do appologise.
I am not a German speaker and have to trust the accuracy of the language experts.


Kas

[evgwheel]

Dave
It has been some time since your announcement of “The Solution To Bessler's Wheel�
Just out of interest, how would you describe your progress?
1, Great 2, Good 3, Still feasible 4, wheel construction in progress 5, time issues 6, Money issues 7, Patent issues 8, Solution need rethink 9 Looked good on paper, but a none-goer. 10, Sold it to government/big business to be stored? Hopefully it is either 1,2,3,4 or 10.

[Fletcher]

Stewart .. thanks, I look forward to your comments about swinging v's momentum/movement in the two translations of the passages from DT.

Doc .. there was without doubt SOME form of impact in his bi-directional wheels - that would make sense if there is something swinging/moving in his wheels, though I feel it is a residual impacting, a consequence of structures moving & falling [loosing PE], rather than impacting as the primary objective - we know that pure impact [hammer] wheels have absolutely no show of being self sustaining & Bessler says so in MT N.B. the essence of 'swinging' is that it implies a rotating pivot & some connection to a mass to be moved but that arcing action can take many guises & not just the one we usually visualize with the word where the mass hangs below the pivot - we know there was a gentle sound of hitting on the down-going side of the wheels which ever direction it was turning at the time.

I know it is not my conversation but thought I would add this.

""the pressure of two fingers" ... "pressure was applied until the moment when a single one of the weights present inside the body of the device began to fall. The machine then gradually began, of its own accord, to revolve faster and faster." - pg 249 Thank you John Collins

and also,

"then set it in motion - it is essentially a roughly 6 ell diameter wheel, about a foot in width. He did this with little difficulty, moving it by hand until a single weight inside it was heard to begin falling; it then began to rotate of its own accord with such a force that within a minute it had rotated 40 and more times, and could only be stopped by applying great effort." - pg 247 Thank you John Collins

I agree with Jim - it may be just translation irregularities - you don't often hear a weight begin to fall unless it is sliding or rolling & then you would expect the witnesses to mention the particular sound of this - IMO it is more likely that they heard the first weight drop [impact] & then it accelerated away - it begs the question; usually when a weight drops on the down-going side it does not apply its full torque to that side of the wheel while in transit so there ought to be an imbalance or less than full compliment of torque while the weight is changing positions - I speculate this is why it needed some initial momentum to overcome this temporary loss of torque, until the weight impacted & the weights had shifted to create the continuous overbalance.

[Dave Roberts]

A question has been asked about status. The wheel is partially constructed but one component may require more effort than I currently have time to work with. Building this new home and finishing the interior myself has really limited my time.

As a result, I have requested Ralph's assistance and am awaiting his response. I have worked with Ralph in the past and he definitely has skills and equipment that I do not possess.

[rlortie]

Evgwheel,

Dave, at his discretion has let it be known that he has entrust me with his design. Yes I am going over it with a very fine tooth comb.

I have a number of days wrapped up scrutinizing/testing the mechanical workings. I wish to cover all basis before reporting to Dave.

Ralph

[Dave Roberts]

Evening everyone. I guess I may need to eat crow (which I understand is not bad if properly prepared). Ralph has responded back in depth as to why the design I sent him will not function. Rather than be upset, I would like to do what few have done and that is put the design with pictures and description for everyone to see (and Ralph agrees with this), comment on, tear apart, analyze and whatever, as I feel that it is definitely in the right direction. If we ever want to solve this puzzle, we need to share.

Tomorrow morning, I will lay it all out. Please excuse the pictures as they were taken in my garage which is being used for storage, staining trim, etc and is a mess.

I know that some of you are looking forward to seeing what directions others are taking toward finding the solution. Maybe someone will put it on a computer program and share.

[AB Hammer]

Hay Dave

When you post it. Post it on Community Buzz. That way if we find something it won't be to open.

PS
I found that Garlic salt and a good hot pepper seasoning works with crow and follow it with a good Whiskey so even if you didn't like it you wouldn't care. For I think allot of us have had to do it from time to time. :))

[rlortie]

Dave,

Thank you for agreeing to post your idea, I only wish that others I have given the same service would do likewise. Turulato is the only other member that I have worked with that would expound on our joint failed findings. I often have to bite my tongue but I must remember where original property rights belong.

Maybe someone will put it on a computer program and share.

By this I assume you mean a simulation program such as WM2D. it would most certainly be a challenge of ones ability to do so, But I too would be interested in seeing if it could be accomplished and the resulting outcome.

Ralph

[evgwheel]

Dave
I admire your attitude; hopefully it leads to openness and possible solutions/ideas for others to follow. Although your solution did not work out as planned, it may be a step closer if a solution is ever to be found or indeed possible.

[DrWhat]

Dave and Ralph, I'm glad you guys gave it a real go/look at.

Don't have any qualms Dave about it not working. At least you tried and well done on all your efforts.

My suggestion would be that you post in a PRIVATE FORUM first.

Perhaps posting in "Stewart's forum" is a wise move.

I look forward to seeing the design.

Damian

[Dave Roberts]

Good morning. The suggestion about the Community Buzz is a good idea. At least the Community Buzz is open to all who sign up - this might increase membership. While the private forum is an option, I might as well put it out for all serious members to see.

Check the Community Buzz for continuation of this post.

Dave

[Stewart]

I was hoping to have finished my whole translation of the German and Latin parts of DT that talk about the inner wheel structure before posting, but I've just not had time this week to complete it. However, I can at least offer something for the first part which is the bit you were questioning. I disagree that the German and Latin are different, as they seem to me to be very similar. There are some small differences which is perhaps because of the difficulty in finding suitable Latin words, but on the whole the two versions seem to tally. Interestingly though it seems that sometimes the German has extra words and more detail and in other places it's the Latin. When I've finished the full translations I'll give a link to the output of my translation-aid software and you'll be able to see for yourself how similar they are. Anyway, here are my two translations so far:

Page 19/20 of DT - German:

The inner structure of this tympanum or wheel is of such a nature, after which a number of weights arranged according to 'a priori' (that is, scientifically demonstrable) laws of mechanical perpetual motion, continuously drive the wheel after/from [a] single received rotation, or after/from [a] single impressed force of the swing/impetus/momentum, and its revolution must continue, so long as that is to say the whole structure maintains itself, without any further assistance and help [from] external motive forces which would require restitution:

Page 19/20 of DT - Latin:

The interior structure of the tympanum or wheel is so constructed, in order that weights, arranged according to 'a priori' or scientifically demonstrable laws of mechanical perpetual motion, may drive the wheel without rest [from a] single received impulse & revolution, and may cause perpetual motion, as long as of course the structure itself [does] not lose its position and order/arrangement; and without any further help & without another added source of motion which may need to be restored.

The part that you're asking about is this:

GERMAN: after/from [a] single impressed force of the swing/impetus/momentum
LATIN: [from a] single received impulse

In the German text the words used are 'Force des Schwunges'. 'Schwunges' is a genitive form of 'Schwung' - so it is 'force of the Schwung'. What does 'Schwung' mean? Click here to see some dictionary meanings. ....

swing, drive, impetus, momentum

it's also true that the word can be used to mean 'swinging' in an oscillatory sense, but in my view that is the least likely meaning in this sentence. "after a single impressed force of swinging/oscillation" - this seems unlikely to me. If Bessler had really meant to say 'swinging/oscillation' I think he would have used a more common word for it such as 'Schwingen' or 'Schwingung'. Also, the Latin does not support 'swinging/oscillation' but rather impulse/impetus/momentum etc., and as both pieces of text are so similar in all other respects it seems very unlikely that there would be two different intended meanings for just that part.

It's interesting to see some other uses of the word though - there was a reference to 'buoyancy' on that link I provided. Also, the following are from an 1810 German-English dictionary:

Schwung, m. swing; von der Seele und ihren Fähigkeiten strain; ein hoher Schwung a high flight; im Schwunge seyn to be on the wing, to soar.

Schwingen, n. swinging, seesawing; vaulting, soaring, taking wing; brandishing, flourishing, beating with a swingle-staff.

Schwingung, f. swinging, seesawing; vaulting, soaring, taking wing; eines Tons, des Pendels vibration.

One final thing that might have some relevance is that in the phrase 'Force des Schwung', force is not a word of German origin (as is apparent by Bessler's use of a Roman typeface for that word), and the German word that Bessler often uses for force is 'Kraft'. If we look up the term 'Schwungkraft' in the online dictionary - click here - we get...

buoyancy, momentum, centrifugal force

I'm still trying to confirm the terms that might have been used in Bessler's time to refer to centrifugal force.

Going back to the Latin - the word used is 'impulsu' which is either the ablative case of the noun 'impulsus', or possibly the ablative case of the supine of the verb 'impello'. Either way it has the following noun meanings: impulse, push, pressure, shock, impact, drive, instigation, incitement.

Other Latin terms used:

tympanum - means a drum. Bessler's wheel resembles a drum in its construction because it has a lightweight cylindrical frame and the top and bottom surfaces of the cylinder (sides of the wheel) were comprised of stretched canvas.

Click here for a dictionary definition of 'a priori'.

Stewart

[Fletcher]

Nobody can accuse you of not being thorough Stewart ;)

Thanks on behalf of all of us for the hard graft you have put into these troublesome translations.

While I digest what you have said here today it occurred to me where in modern day usage we use the term swing to mean imparting momentum - when we hand pull a vintage aeroplane propeller - you 'swing' the prop or 'swing' [on] the prop.