Quite right. The system must be open to input of free energy from Nature. When the conservative forces are discounted then, IMO, all that's left is free energy thermal transfer from the environment.James wrote:...I'm just afraid it is the old dog chasing it's tail sort of thing again, and that COE in a closed system will wreck everything, as usual.
The KEY, possibly?
Moderator: scott
re: The KEY, possibly?
James, the balloon filled with compressed air will weight more than the balloon rubber alone. Compressed air obviously has a higher density, therefore weight, than non-compressed air.
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primemignonite
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re: The KEY, possibly?
". . . the balloon filled with compressed air will weight more than the balloon rubber alone. . . ."
OK, Bill, so now we compress the air trapped within a leakless dash-pot. The sparser air on the outside presses on this downward, making all heavier slightly.
Conversely, we rarify the air within the LDP, and so, the relatively denser air on the outside presses upward from below, making all lighter slightly
Bellows in the olden days of Bessler, were worked-up from planed and shaped wood, with gussets made of sheep skin. The active area of the flexing hinge leather was very small, and the flexure of the wooden walls quite minute, especailly with the low wind pressures then used - 1.75" - 2.25" H2O but they were capable of much higher before bursting. It was sealed all around with egg-white.
If done properly by a good journeyman, when open to the outside, the bellows would fall open or closed, depending on how it was held against gravity. What this meant was that the interior friction (binding) was truly vanquished. Interestingly, the most difficult of all are the smallest ones, such as coo-coo clock bellows. They work only on fractions of an inch of pressure, their movable walls being lifted and then dropped by the clock's mechanism, and thereby making the little artificial bird's throat sing the hours and halves, etc.
Ineffibly charming to see in operation, they are.
If you made one just-so, so that no matter how much force compressing, or rarifying of the interior air, there would be no noticable wall deflection. I remember this well, and also many, many failures, as well. ["Masters do not fall from Heaven" - a traditional saying of the German journeymen to hapless apprentices, in order to irritate them well! The good ones will be spurred-on by this, the rest, drop away.]
So, if a weight were attached to one of the movable boards, and turned so that the weight was pulling down on it, the air inside would then be rarified, and be pushed up from below by the comparatively denser air; and when turned over so that the weight was then pressing down on the movable board, the interior air would be compressed and become heavier, relative to the sparser outside atmosphere.
RESULT(?): a Net difference in total force downward v. upward.
Could this be what Bessler was doing?
Let's find the flaw . . .
James
OK, Bill, so now we compress the air trapped within a leakless dash-pot. The sparser air on the outside presses on this downward, making all heavier slightly.
Conversely, we rarify the air within the LDP, and so, the relatively denser air on the outside presses upward from below, making all lighter slightly
Bellows in the olden days of Bessler, were worked-up from planed and shaped wood, with gussets made of sheep skin. The active area of the flexing hinge leather was very small, and the flexure of the wooden walls quite minute, especailly with the low wind pressures then used - 1.75" - 2.25" H2O but they were capable of much higher before bursting. It was sealed all around with egg-white.
If done properly by a good journeyman, when open to the outside, the bellows would fall open or closed, depending on how it was held against gravity. What this meant was that the interior friction (binding) was truly vanquished. Interestingly, the most difficult of all are the smallest ones, such as coo-coo clock bellows. They work only on fractions of an inch of pressure, their movable walls being lifted and then dropped by the clock's mechanism, and thereby making the little artificial bird's throat sing the hours and halves, etc.
Ineffibly charming to see in operation, they are.
If you made one just-so, so that no matter how much force compressing, or rarifying of the interior air, there would be no noticable wall deflection. I remember this well, and also many, many failures, as well. ["Masters do not fall from Heaven" - a traditional saying of the German journeymen to hapless apprentices, in order to irritate them well! The good ones will be spurred-on by this, the rest, drop away.]
So, if a weight were attached to one of the movable boards, and turned so that the weight was pulling down on it, the air inside would then be rarified, and be pushed up from below by the comparatively denser air; and when turned over so that the weight was then pressing down on the movable board, the interior air would be compressed and become heavier, relative to the sparser outside atmosphere.
RESULT(?): a Net difference in total force downward v. upward.
Could this be what Bessler was doing?
Let's find the flaw . . .
James
Cynic-In-Chief, BesslerWheel (Ret.); Perpetualist First-Class; Iconoclast. "The Iconoclast, like the other mills of God, grinds slowly, but it grinds exceedingly small." - Brann
re: The KEY, possibly?
James, applying COE to your rising and falling bellows, I might expect that any advantage in the weight of a bellows cavity would be perfectly negated by the relative fall of it's compression weight. Perhaps I'm wrong? :)
IMO, there must be a real energy cycle at work in the system, where a non-conservative force is brought into the equation, thus breaking the conservative balance we've come to know so well. If we expect work out, then we must surely expect to see work in.
IMO, there must be a real energy cycle at work in the system, where a non-conservative force is brought into the equation, thus breaking the conservative balance we've come to know so well. If we expect work out, then we must surely expect to see work in.
re: The KEY, possibly?
Hey James, it's funny you bring this up now because Stewart and I were just discussing this on Friday. The one thing you guys haven't mentioned here is a Cartesian diver, which is where our discussion led to.
http://lectureonline.cl.msu.edu/~mmp/applist/f/f.htm
A weight could be neutral balanced and then, with some pressure on the surrounding area, be made to be "heavier".
Edit: Before I get hammered... I realize that the air and "weight" will displace water to the bottom. I'm only mentioning the whole diver concept here for whatever it's worth. ;-)
http://lectureonline.cl.msu.edu/~mmp/applist/f/f.htm
A weight could be neutral balanced and then, with some pressure on the surrounding area, be made to be "heavier".
Edit: Before I get hammered... I realize that the air and "weight" will displace water to the bottom. I'm only mentioning the whole diver concept here for whatever it's worth. ;-)
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primemignonite
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re: The KEY, possibly?
Ovyyus wrote
"James, applying COE to your rising and falling bellows, I might expect that any advantage in the weight of a bellows cavity would be perfectly negated by the relative fall of it's compression weight. Perhaps I'm wrong? :)"
Yes, me too, and, probably not, unfortunately.
BUT!
Possibly some anomaly having to do with some gas not yet known? How about when atmospheric air is impacted suddenly? Or, how about this one, Bill, static electricity zapping inside bellows someway, and behaving piston-like to move weights for overbalance?
Hmm . . . Jesus! Electricity!! Great Bessler's Ghost!!! That could be it!!!!
Such would conform to your energy coming in from without requirement, no? Hot damn!
And also,
"IMO, there must be a real energy cycle at work in the system, where a non-conservative force is brought into the equation, thus breaking the conservative balance we've come to know so well. If we expect work out, then we must surely expect to see work in."
This is painfully logical and so, nearly without any doubt.
What if Bessler had found a way to utilize (cohere, or primitively rectify) static electricity, and put that to work moving weights inside, so as to produce overbalances? Not too far out, but a real directional jog, for sure.
Ahhh, the very possibility of very earliest Frankenstein-Tech coming to the rescue! Think of it: ROMANCE! SCIENCE! ART! all coming to-the-fore and uniting solidly, so as to provide explanations for things so-far hidden from our wearied, seeking intelligence!
Bill, a blending of your requirement for external force coming into the CS and causing, by means effected clever mechanism placed in-between, our desired overbalance!?
Everyone would be HAPPY, and beyond measure! No physical laws woud be broken, Leibniz's explanation would be proved correct as would Bill's, and the Royal Society would cause the model of the hoary new wonder to be brought to for Royal honors, Bessler being vindicated and proclaimed an unwitting electrical genius, of early natural motation!
A new day dawns!
James
"James, applying COE to your rising and falling bellows, I might expect that any advantage in the weight of a bellows cavity would be perfectly negated by the relative fall of it's compression weight. Perhaps I'm wrong? :)"
Yes, me too, and, probably not, unfortunately.
BUT!
Possibly some anomaly having to do with some gas not yet known? How about when atmospheric air is impacted suddenly? Or, how about this one, Bill, static electricity zapping inside bellows someway, and behaving piston-like to move weights for overbalance?
Hmm . . . Jesus! Electricity!! Great Bessler's Ghost!!! That could be it!!!!
Such would conform to your energy coming in from without requirement, no? Hot damn!
And also,
"IMO, there must be a real energy cycle at work in the system, where a non-conservative force is brought into the equation, thus breaking the conservative balance we've come to know so well. If we expect work out, then we must surely expect to see work in."
This is painfully logical and so, nearly without any doubt.
What if Bessler had found a way to utilize (cohere, or primitively rectify) static electricity, and put that to work moving weights inside, so as to produce overbalances? Not too far out, but a real directional jog, for sure.
Ahhh, the very possibility of very earliest Frankenstein-Tech coming to the rescue! Think of it: ROMANCE! SCIENCE! ART! all coming to-the-fore and uniting solidly, so as to provide explanations for things so-far hidden from our wearied, seeking intelligence!
Bill, a blending of your requirement for external force coming into the CS and causing, by means effected clever mechanism placed in-between, our desired overbalance!?
Everyone would be HAPPY, and beyond measure! No physical laws woud be broken, Leibniz's explanation would be proved correct as would Bill's, and the Royal Society would cause the model of the hoary new wonder to be brought to for Royal honors, Bessler being vindicated and proclaimed an unwitting electrical genius, of early natural motation!
A new day dawns!
James
Cynic-In-Chief, BesslerWheel (Ret.); Perpetualist First-Class; Iconoclast. "The Iconoclast, like the other mills of God, grinds slowly, but it grinds exceedingly small." - Brann
re: The KEY, possibly?
James: Ken B who was a member here, told us time and time again that the weights would have to "lose mass" in order for a gravity wheel to work, I suppose he was saying they had to lose it on the up swing, but just how that was supposed to happen I have no Idea!?
mak
re: The KEY, possibly?
James,
Ah-ha! that secret ingredient your are looking for, electrical sparking creates ozone, ozone (03) is a lighter mass than ambient air. Also a pollutant causing acid rain.
Once again though the eye witness could not have missed the pungent smell of ozone! They may have not realized what it was, but they surely could not miss it!
(All in jest, as I am sure we all realize this is a little far fetched)
Ralph
Ah-ha! that secret ingredient your are looking for, electrical sparking creates ozone, ozone (03) is a lighter mass than ambient air. Also a pollutant causing acid rain.
Once again though the eye witness could not have missed the pungent smell of ozone! They may have not realized what it was, but they surely could not miss it!
(All in jest, as I am sure we all realize this is a little far fetched)
Ralph
Last edited by rlortie on Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
re: The KEY, possibly?
The rain flows. Snow falls.
The rain could mean Condensation, the snow could mean frost, maybe he was working with vapor-compression as in heatpumps, or creating a vacume of some kind in a cylinder.
Just a thought
Ken
The rain could mean Condensation, the snow could mean frost, maybe he was working with vapor-compression as in heatpumps, or creating a vacume of some kind in a cylinder.
Just a thought
Ken
All material motion requires a source of energy, a body to store the energy, and the energy of motion.
re: The KEY, possibly?
Ken,
"The rain flows" the snow falls"... Poetic facts, not unlike after 14 pints I must drain my bladder. But no! I am not going to do it here. I am going to do it waaaaay! over there. :-)
Ralph
"The rain flows" the snow falls"... Poetic facts, not unlike after 14 pints I must drain my bladder. But no! I am not going to do it here. I am going to do it waaaaay! over there. :-)
Ralph
re: The KEY, possibly?
Ralph
What the heck are you talking about, that went way over my head.
Ken
What the heck are you talking about, that went way over my head.
Ken
All material motion requires a source of energy, a body to store the energy, and the energy of motion.
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primemignonite
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re: The KEY, possibly?
ED,
The Cartesian Diver is yet another thing coming to us from earlier times, the days when ART, SCIENCE, PHILOSOPHY were all rather close.
I was tipped-off to the allure that FALSE "perpetual motions" have even upon the minds of the seemingly staid. Dear Professor Simanek, on his web site, has a section actually dedicated to PM art! That he has come to acknowledge the exceeding charms existing in the history of the seeking-after our generally, greatly disparaged-of, energetic chimera, is both telling and encouraging, I think.
As to things working on the same principle as the Cartesian Divers, I recall having seen somewhere, this very one set to the task of artistically displaying barometric pressure changes, I believe. Little blown glass things with numbers captured within floating, going up, and going down, all according to pressure changes of the outside air, the result achieved being, that the one highest (or lowest?) is a true reading.
Ralph,
Yeah, I guess it would have, the ozone, but if present the experiencers really would not have known what was up, as you suggest. In the early 18th Century, electricity was not at all understood, I think, being really a 'far out' thing. To very many, it must have seemed an effect magical.
You know, I don't remember Newton as ever having commented on the then quasi-mystical phenomenon. Did he?
You also said "(All in jest, as I am sure we all realize this is a little far fetched)"
It is somewhat, Ralph, but one never knows what concept such "play" might jog-loose, in some observer's mind, as in THE right one?
Ovyyus' assertions regarding from where any supposed energy for turning a Bessler Wheel might come, cannot be ignored. It MUST originate from somewhere, internal or external, or, be a magical effect, and so, here enters my and others' suggestions to the effect that it may have been a case of local, special suspension of natural laws, and this to some purpose completely unknowable to us.
This long-shot possible explanation, many others do not wish to hear-of, for IF true, the game would be over, essentially. Here I am wading into waters troubling to others, and so, I'll leave it at that.
James
The Cartesian Diver is yet another thing coming to us from earlier times, the days when ART, SCIENCE, PHILOSOPHY were all rather close.
I was tipped-off to the allure that FALSE "perpetual motions" have even upon the minds of the seemingly staid. Dear Professor Simanek, on his web site, has a section actually dedicated to PM art! That he has come to acknowledge the exceeding charms existing in the history of the seeking-after our generally, greatly disparaged-of, energetic chimera, is both telling and encouraging, I think.
As to things working on the same principle as the Cartesian Divers, I recall having seen somewhere, this very one set to the task of artistically displaying barometric pressure changes, I believe. Little blown glass things with numbers captured within floating, going up, and going down, all according to pressure changes of the outside air, the result achieved being, that the one highest (or lowest?) is a true reading.
Ralph,
Yeah, I guess it would have, the ozone, but if present the experiencers really would not have known what was up, as you suggest. In the early 18th Century, electricity was not at all understood, I think, being really a 'far out' thing. To very many, it must have seemed an effect magical.
You know, I don't remember Newton as ever having commented on the then quasi-mystical phenomenon. Did he?
You also said "(All in jest, as I am sure we all realize this is a little far fetched)"
It is somewhat, Ralph, but one never knows what concept such "play" might jog-loose, in some observer's mind, as in THE right one?
Ovyyus' assertions regarding from where any supposed energy for turning a Bessler Wheel might come, cannot be ignored. It MUST originate from somewhere, internal or external, or, be a magical effect, and so, here enters my and others' suggestions to the effect that it may have been a case of local, special suspension of natural laws, and this to some purpose completely unknowable to us.
This long-shot possible explanation, many others do not wish to hear-of, for IF true, the game would be over, essentially. Here I am wading into waters troubling to others, and so, I'll leave it at that.
James
Cynic-In-Chief, BesslerWheel (Ret.); Perpetualist First-Class; Iconoclast. "The Iconoclast, like the other mills of God, grinds slowly, but it grinds exceedingly small." - Brann
