Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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Roxaway59
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Roxaway59 »

Hi agor95, I only have a bench drill and some basic tools so I do find it a problem trying to do things accurately but if I take my time and deal with each issue one by one I can usually get half decent results. How nice it would be to have a workshop. For me one of the biggest problems is trying to use my imagination to work out the best approach so I can build something that will tell me something conclusive. It takes me forever --).
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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Roxaway59 wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:23 pm How nice it would be to have a workshop.
There are workshops in some countries for hobbyists . Two I know about are 'Men in Sheds' & 'Maker Space'.

P.S. I have been heavily studying Blender now 4.01. It allows you to create photo image quality images.
They can come out looking to clean. So for a moment that is what I thought I was looking at in your images :)

Regards
Last edited by agor95 on Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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Hi agor95, if you are mastering the art of using the Blender software then well done. Personally I have problems using a real blender --). Seriously though I did make a 3d sphere in Blender a while back but that's as far as I got.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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Roxaway59 wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:29 pm Personally I have problems using a real blender --).
Seriously though I did make a 3d sphere in Blender a while back but that's as far as I got.
It is confusing but it's part of my road map and has to be learned.

Saying that there are resources available 'blender precision modelling' on youtube.
And then ChatGPT. Yes you can ask it to create a blender script which can be run to produce objects etc. The later is early days development.

I am using it as a CAD modeller but with options to expand later.

I have done cross over techniques from blander to the other methods learned.

For more detailed discussion then they are held in my private forum.

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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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agor95, I will be honest with you and say I think I have decoded the toy page. I don't like saying this because I'm not sure anyone is going to take me serious and I don't like the idea of being left with egg on my face. I believe that the toy page relates directly to the wheel I'm working on and that it is in essence a cryptic blueprint of what is inside Besslers wheel. If it turns out I'm wrong then so be it but that is what I believe at the moment.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by agor95 »

Roxaway59 wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:59 am I will be honest with you and say I think I have decoded the toy page.
Well my private forum is open to, authorised members, that deserves support.
No egg or judgement; just a place were you are not talking to a wall.

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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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I think it is pending at the moment.
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Post by agor95 »

Roxaway59 wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 10:15 am I think it is pending at the moment.
Graham
For your information.

I see you have requested to join the group. I have authorise your access.
I am working on an active community basis in my private forum.

That allows the forum to be clean and clear.

When members have no active projects then they do not need access.
This is not personal and requesting access can be given with any new projects.

Regards
Last edited by agor95 on Thu Dec 07, 2023 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Roxaway59 »

Hi agor95, sorry but you may have taken me the wrong way. I am willing to share what I'm thinking or what I know on the forum to all members using my thread I am just a bit worried that some members might see it as putting 2 and 2 together and making 5. I will post it on my thread a little later when I have a visual representation of what I'm talking about in Algodoo.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Roxaway59 »

Ok I hope I haven't done anything really out of wack with this Algodoo picture and part simulation.

The first thing I need to stress is that although the wheel looks a bit different in the way the levers are laid out in essence it isn't.

If these are the cryptic blueprint clues that Bessler left us to find then the wheel on the right could be a representation of the kind of thing you would have seen on one crossbar had you taken the oilcloth off. The only difference is the mechanisms would have been getting smaller as they approached the axle so that other crossbars could go on. It is shown this way to emphasis the Jacobs ladder. There isn't really much to say about this other than if all this just turns out to be a mere coincidence then boy what a coincidence. I welcome any thoughts from the forum and as you know I am already experimenting with the real thing so one way or another some answers are going to come.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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Roxaway59 wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:59 am agor95, I will be honest with you and say I think I have decoded the toy page. I don't like saying this because I'm not sure anyone is going to take me serious and I don't like the idea of being left with egg on my face. I believe that the toy page relates directly to the wheel I'm working on and that it is in essence a cryptic blueprint of what is inside Besslers wheel. If it turns out I'm wrong then so be it but that is what I believe at the moment.
Graham
You are not alone Graham .. many, including myself, believe the Toy's Page (TP) is there to 'guide and prod' us to an eventual runner solution .. ignore or dismiss it at your peril ;7)

And in my case that it represents a mixture of mechanical elements and symbolisms relating to the Prime Mover structure/apparatus specifically, rather than any one single OOB wheel format that you perhaps are attempting to portray (each to their own) .. nevertheless, we all follow your thought processes and logical arguments with interest and open minds ..

We also appreciate how hard it is to wrestle with the B. mind games and coalesce the magic ingredients into digestible and understandable form .. "cryptic blueprint" maybe even too generous lol .. new shores are never found until one leaves the safety of the land ..
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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Yes I know what you mean Fletcher and I suppose what we are doing is thinking what kind of mindset did Mr B have when he gave his clues? Is the small toy on that page a rattle? Does anyone know the design and whats in it?
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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Yes I know what you mean Fletcher and I suppose what we are doing is thinking what kind of mindset did Mr B have when he gave his clues?

Is the small toy on that page a rattle? Does anyone know the design and whats in it?
Graham
The MT pics were woodcut prints - it appears that B. printed the TP off with others, and at a later date penned in (hand drew) the 6 o'cl positioned toy, and also added the hand written commentary beside it about 5. Childrens' games ..

What was his mindset ? .. to create intrigue, interest, and motivation for future readers, if his secret was not yet revealed, I'd guess - but by no means to make it remotely easy to decode, decipher, or unravel etc .. 'oblique' might also be a generous description of his mindset - and if you want to make it hard to unravel, but not impossible, then imo the page is a mixture of mechanical actions, and symbolic associations to mechanical actions ..

[ as an aside and example of lateral mindset - the San Francisco zodiac killer of the 1960's taunted media and police with coded messages that even the FBI crack team could not decipher - his first coded message was decoded by amateur husband and wife team who liked cross-words and puzzles - they used logic and association - they reasoned that it would be a substitution code and he would have used the word "kill" or "killer" in his first coded message to authorities - so they looked for 2 symbols side-by-side to represent 2 L's - and from that they were able to decode the entire first message .. later the FBI used a super computer and substitution to crack the other messages based on what the man and women had done previously - ultimately he was undone and revealed by DNA matching from the letters and crime scenes which came of age 30 years later ]

So unless AI can eventually crack B's. TP puzzle page then it's up to us to use a mechanical equivalent of a Caesar Shift substitution code to get to the DNA of his device, and its purpose ..

The toy you mention by consensus appears to be a standing upright wooden spinning top of the whistling variety .. what's in it ? - it appears empty but has a hole for air entry (the 'eye in front') which makes a sound when spinning in a real whistling top - what is missing is the method to spin the top up, which is usually a rope pull or a rope on a stick pull, or hitting with a stick - the fact that the source of motion for the 'top' is missing from the drawing may be indicative of a motive force/source for a part of his device, or connection method etc ..

Back to B's. mindset wrt TP - it could not be impossible to unravel, just extremely hard most likely ..

Here's some things to think about on that page .. he drew in the last toy by hand and beside it said 5. games etc etc - but there are 6 figures on that page now (we can count) - we can see how they are labelled with toys C and D appearing to be the same class of toy (but not identical duplication) - they take up the center real-estate of the page indicating their importance due to position imo - furthermore they are labelled twice each i.e. CC and DD - also a duplication .. what was his mindset and message with C & D toys ?

Imo take either C or D and place one over the other so that they occupy the same 'space' (side-by-side) in the center of the real-estate allotted to only them .. we will each have our own thoughts and logic, and deductions, on where to start and where to go to make some mechanical sense of that page - that was, and is, mine ..

There are whole topics dedicated to the TP and decoding efforts, and number and letter substitution analysis etc - Ockham's Razor may well apply to B's. mindset when he set the puzzle, and for solving it ..
Last edited by Fletcher on Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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It is widely considered to be a whistling spinning top
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Post by agor95 »

Fletcher wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:37 pm we can see how they are labelled with toys C and D appearing to be the same class of toy (but not identical duplication)
Similar but different.
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