Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[daxwc]

MrTim:
Q1: Is there an x-ray machine that big?
and
Q2: How did they fit the sphere through the door to the x-ray machine?

Copilot: Yes, there are X-ray machines designed specifically for large animals like horses and elephants. These machines are robust and portable, allowing veterinarians to perform radiographic imaging on-site, even for very large animals.

[Roxaway59]

I have been side tracked for a while with other things but now and then I have been running some older ideas on Algodoo.

The other night I was doing this when a thought struck me that felt like a moment of clarity.

When I first started this topic I presented my idea for overbalancing my wheel and I said right from the start that I felt the approach was good. I’m still looking to see if I can make it work but I had noted certain differences between that approach and a lot of others.

One thing I liked was its ability to turn 180 degrees before losing its overbalance because the pendulum it created started at around 12 o’clock.

There are not that many ideas that do that but as I looked at old sims on Algodoo I came across one but with an additional feature.

Here is the basic idea and to most people this is not a new idea but one thing that struck me about it is that this idea might very well turn out to be along the lines of what Bessler did but with some kind of unique addition to it.

Run it and the green bumpers will turn off after 90 degrees and no longer collide.

[Roxaway59]

I want to go through some of the good qualities about this and to point out some links to what Bessler said and to the way his wheel behaved.

Firstly it can swing all the way from 12 o’clock but you don’t have to do it that way.

Second important point with this is that after its finished overbalancing it automatically coasts. There is no fancy mechanism making that happen.

Another thing I like about this approach is something that is not too obvious at first.

To begin with both the levers behave as though they are one overbalancing lever.

Later after the overbalancing they split up and become two separate entities on either side of the wheel.

So the wheel automatically switches ( I have talked about switching ) from overbalance to flywheel automatically.

The problem this basic design suffers from is resetting to the point where it can gain potential energy to carry on driving the wheel in a positive feedback loop.

Most people would call this design a one shot deal and basically the way its presented that is exactly what it is.

However, is it possible that this is actually the basic approach that Bessler used albeit with an additional mechanism to reset to the point where it obtained positive feedback?

I think that may be the case and I would like to put forward a few ideas about it and reasons why I think that might be so.

Besslers said his idea was simple and this simple but effective way of driving the wheel would certainly fit.

His wheel made a tapping sound and so would this.

He said the weights gained power from their own swinging or words to that effect and that would be the case if it could be made to work.

He said that laden or unladen it would work and potentially that is true for this idea because you don’t necessarily need the weights on to make it work.

We know that Besslers wheel behaved like a clock. Well because of the strong pendulum action on this design I think this would too.

He spoke a lot about ratchets and this design could certainly work that way.

This design would have a strong timing element to it but the timing of the levers is not necessarily fixed.

Gravity strength and centrifugal force both help decide how fast the levers / pendulums can swing.

If a storks bill is used instead of a fixed bar this can also alter the timing and maybe the degree to which the weights swing at crucial times.

Bessler put a storks bill on the toy page along with references to things switching.

Ok I will leave it there and I will of course try a lot more experimenting with this.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Hi everyone and happy New Year.

Everyone likes solving puzzles so I thought as a continuation from my last post I would lay out a puzzle to solve.

I haven't thought of many rules for the puzzle so I may have to introduce some more as we go.

So here are the most important rules so far.

1) The wheel can be pre-loaded but it has to use gravity not springs etc...

2) What ever is pre-loading, it must be attached to the wheel and turn with it.

The challenge / puzzle is this.

How many degrees can a preloaded wheel turn itself before free wheeling?

To start things off I have adapted my last wheel so that it turns nearly 360 degrees before free wheeling.

I don't think I need to explain how it is doing it but if you let it run you will see that in Algodoo it picks up speed after it freewheels for a while. I doubt very much that it would do the same in WM2D.

Graham

[Tarsier79]

1) The wheel can be pre-loaded but it has to use gravity not springs etc...

Why? Bessler specifically says his used springs, but not wound up like in a clock. He also said his weights didn't wind down like a clock as well, so preload is at minimum a grey area.

[Roxaway59]

Tarsier79 its just to see if it can be done and to see if anything useful comes from it.

Graham

[Fletcher]

Mornin Graham, and HNY ..

I don't think I need to explain how it is doing it but if you let it run you will see that in Algodoo it picks up speed after it freewheels for a while. I doubt very much that it would do the same in WM2D.

Did you make the same test in WM and compare them ?

The system COM is roughly between the 2 yellow weights - it starts top heavy ( primed to COG above the axle ) and upon release it accelerates and moves to release PE - I would expect the RKE + KEt to equal the GPE lost - once the pends are vertical the system COM/ COG should stay directly beneath the axle at about half radius - it will oscillate around a little due to the inertia and frictions of the pends as they are rotated with the wheel ..

I would not expect wm2d to show any major increase in wheel rpm but would show a slightly oscillating rpm that averages out to a constant rpm and then if frictions are turned on would decline due to dissipative energy losses ..

Best -f

[Roxaway59]

To put it another way Tarsier79 I'm asking what I think is an important question.

I can make a wheel that when pre-loaded can drive itself for close to 360 degrees where after it free wheels.

It has 2 separate ideas acting one after the other and I am wondering if weights always have to drop or if it is possible to reset by merging ideas together.

I don't have to tell anyone here that Besslers wheel didn't just over balance but it also reset its weights.

I'm interested in seeing if it can go more than 360 degree and possibly adding more separate ideas that compliment one another and possibly help one another reset.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Hi Fletcher no I didn't put this in WM2D because I was pretty certain of what it would do.

I'm really just curious as to how many ideas can be strung together that compliment one another.

I'm thinking along the lines of what Besslers wheel had to of done and how it behaved.

Thoughts along the lines of if Besslers wheel had positive feedback then the wheel itself would be the output. The prime mover would be the input.

Graham

[Fletcher]

Agreed - a Prime Mover device delivering manual Input, said Prime Mover replenishing and resetting OOB weights GPE and torque Output to sustain the overbalance and accelerate the wheel body - that in turn re-primed the Prime Mover for its next round of Input .. IMO ..

[Tarsier79]

I can make a wheel that when pre-loaded can drive itself for close to 360 degrees where after it free wheels.

It has 2 separate ideas acting one after the other and I am wondering if weights always have to drop or if it is possible to reset by merging ideas together.

Well, putting it simply, gravity will drive your wheel while the COM is falling, regardless of the mechanism. So, yes, with preload you can make it turn as many times as you want.

The energy of rotation put into the wheel theoretically equals the amount the COM falls, so the reset is always going to be the problem.....
The only way a wheel can keep rotating is by "breaking" laws of physics. The wheel, or its mechanisms have to make more energy than they use...

[thx4]

The only way a wheel can keep rotating is by "breaking" laws of physics.

@Tarsier,

B's secret is simply an idea we haven't had yet, that's all.
When Karl says an apprentice can do it easily, he's talking about the object, not the idea. As for the idea, Karl is surprised that no one before B has done it.
Once you know how to make a Rubik's Cube, it's a piece of cake.

[Roxaway59]

Tarsier79 wrote

Well, putting it simply, gravity will drive your wheel while the COM is falling, regardless of the mechanism. So, yes, with preload you can make it turn as many times as you want.

The energy of rotation put into the wheel theoretically equals the amount the COM falls, so the reset is always going to be the problem.....
The only way a wheel can keep rotating is by "breaking" laws of physics. The wheel, or its mechanisms have to make more energy than they use...

This is all very logical stuff Tarsier and I’m sure I don’t have to remind you that its exactly the same stuff that was spoken to Bessler and used to discredit him in every way possible.

I think by now pretty much every one of us knows that we are attempting to do something that other people sneer and laugh at.

Putting it even more simply, on the face of it we are all trying to do what is deemed to be impossible and we are following in the footsteps of a man who’s demonstrations can not be acceptably discredited.

All we have is people brushing it aside like it was nothing with no plausible explanation that stays within the laws of physics as to how he did it.

In short he didn’t show the inner workings of his wheel to everyone but he demonstrated what it could do to the point of mystifying the onlookers. A little bit like a magician but a typical magicians trick would have been explained by now because they also have to stay within the laws of physics.

There are two main ideas on the table at the moment as I see it.

1) That the weights in Besslers wheel constantly dropped and reset but somehow gained a lot more energy on the output which was the wheel itself.

2) The movement of the weights tapped into energy from outside the wheel.

Thinking about this logically neither of these are suppose to be possible but the second one seems to be more logical.

However, both of these are on the table and they BOTH need to be looked at very carefully.

Getting back to what I am doing in my latest sim I am simply asking questions and trying to engage people in what I think is something useful.

Taking my last one as an example. The wheel is preloaded in a way that is difficult to see how it can be reset. It turns about 180 degrees where the preloading is exhausted and then very smoothly it transitions to another preloading that never interfered with the first one that also turns the wheel a further 180 degrees. This second preloading is also difficult to reset.

At this point the wheel free wheels and the last preloading oscillates between falling and lifting weights.

Lets imagine that this was Besslers wheel and it didn’t get its energy externally.

We can easily imagine that as it turned the torque was constant but maybe not consistent with one crossbar. We can also imagine that maybe there was more than one movement producing the torque and maybe two or three movements.

Why do I say this?

Well its obvious that although what Bessler did was said to be simple the knocking noise itself gives it away as having a certain amount of over all complexity.

I have often thought that its more likely to be a collection of simple well understood movements thereby giving it an air of simplicity that actually isn’t that simple once you stand back and appreciate the full movement.

I have mentioned before on this topic that Bessler says “the movement” as though this is something special as it goes around the wheel which it obviously is.

My sim has two movements, is it possible to have say three for one revolution of the wheel that compliment one another?

Presumably these movements have to be connected to one another. Is it possible for all three movements to produce torque and for two of the movements to reset the third as they progress?

These are the sort of questions I am trying to get answers to.

Graham

[Kattla]

If it works at 50 rpm, and a radius of 0.7 meter , it might be on the right track.

[Fletcher]

Taking my last one as an example. The wheel is preloaded in a way that is difficult to see how it can be reset. It turns about 180 degrees where the preloading is exhausted and then very smoothly it transitions to another preloading that never interfered with the first one that also turns the wheel a further 180 degrees. This second preloading is also difficult to reset.

At this point the wheel free wheels and the last preloading oscillates between falling and lifting weights.

For those that are trying to follow what Graham's sim shows, and understand him saying there are 2 pre-loadings .. explanation - he has 2 levers slightly off vertical ( set to slight torque bias ) , 1 above and 1 below the axle of a disk - each lever has an end weight - the yellow weights are heavier then the blue weights - the levers lean against the green stops which are made inactive after 1/2 turn or so to allow the levers to hang ..

When the sim is run it starts off top-heavy ( COM / COG is above the axle i.e. there is prearranged system GPE ) - the sim rotates CW to release the given GPE - as the system COM falls so the disk KE increases - as the system COM reaches around 6 o'cl the green stops are deactivated - the wheel has gained momentum and KE equivalent to the GPE lost and thereafter will continue to revolve ..

However, there is a second built-in pre-loading - this is where he has changed the pivot point for one of his levers ( i.e. both levers pivot points are at a different radius ) - this gives the disk a second COM bias and impetus, and allows more system GPE to be converted to disk KE for another half turn or so - then it free-wheels as all pre-loading is exhausted ..

Each pre-loading ( top heavy + pivot positioning ) allows the disk to convert system COM / COG GPE to disk KE in a sequential 2 stage process ..