That aside, I would be interested in what you have to say regarding the design I have come up with and posted here, which is in no way related to Peter's design.
I always make it a point to respond when I am addressed in a post such as above. Unfortunately my time is limited at present. please be patient and I will respond with my two cents worth. After I have had a better chance to review your video and text when I can concentrate on it.
Your design and video reminds me of a framing square with a pivot at the blade and tongue. This principle does indeed have advantages, similar machines have been built.
I will be curious to see what happens when you get the third set mounted. in the meantime I am not excited about the use of springs for this design. Time will tell!
The spring is blinding you to the true issue, it will make your model better but its not helping.
Si mobile in circumferentia circuli feratur ea celeritate, quam acquirit cadendo ex
altitudine, quae sit quartae parti diameter aequalis ; habebit vim centrifugam suae
gravitati aequalem.
Trevor,
I understand what you are saying about the falling pendulum. If a pendulum (weight) on one side which is exerting force on the wheel (simply because of its weight) is suddenly airborne, the weight on the opposite side now puts the wheel out of balance in a direction opposite that which you are trying to achieve with the falling pendulum. So when it strikes, it does NOT achieve the maximum effect. In fact, its effect may be negated. While I definitely haven't done enough experimenting to verify this, I would absolutely agree that this is possible. I believe, however, that there would be two exceptions to this: Top dead center and bottom dead center. In either of these positions there is little or no negative effect from what I have seen on the bench. Again, I may be wrong, but I would be interested in your thoughts on this. In my opinion, those are the only two times when you can have an impact pendulum fall where it does not negate the acceleration it is creating by putting the wheel out of balance.
Thanks so much to everyone for your opinions and contributions. I am going to finish the model I began, because I always finish my builds just to see what is right and what is wrong. I am doubtful that it will work at this point, but I have been surprised before. It has, however, opened up a new path for me to follow that appears to be different from anything I have seen so far in all my research on Bessler. Not that I have seen everything there is, so maybe someone has gone down this road before. Anyway, I hesitate to talk about it until I have at least a portion of it built, which may take a few days. A picture is worth a thousand words, and video is even better. Since I cannot complete my present design until my parts come in, I need something else to do. My new build will be a combination of a controlled impact and unbalancing the wheel, but in a far different manner than what I have been showing in my videos to date.
I wonder what someone would pay for a wheel that actually works?
I understand what you are saying about the falling pendulum. If a pendulum (weight) on one side which is exerting force on the wheel (simply because of its weight) is suddenly airborne, the weight on the opposite side now puts the wheel out of balance in a direction opposite that which you are trying to achieve with the falling pendulum.
A falling pendulum will never become airborne if the embodiment to which it is attached is also descending. This is called 'hook-swing' and was the major fault in the Peter Lindemann design.
A pendulum attached to the rim or within the radius of the wheel will add Ke by its weight. It is the ascending pivot/pendulum you wish to become airborne.
A free falling pendulum attached to your wheel will hang vertically until the wheel drops or turns until said pendulum hits its stop. There the bob is forced into angular momentum, the angular velocity created will be very noticeable as the wheel RPM increases with a sudden but short burst of acceleration.
Test of proof; Pivot a pendulum rod at the rim held at 12:00 make the rod long enough to let the bob hang below wheel axle. Allow the unit to fall, place a stop for the rod to hit just before the bob hits the rim.
Return the pivot point to 12:00 + and let go of it, note what happens when the rod hits the stop.
Well, it didn't work with three devices attached, but I did learn some things, which is always a good thing.
I don't know if it would make the least difference but you might try moving the pivots to the axle. This would require remaking the base of two pivots so that they might overlap on the axle.
I have been experimenting with every pendulum config and connectivity imaginable of late. What Ralph writes is spot on with my recent findings. Using all-thread for pendulum rods allows you to hunt for the harmonic between revolution and throw points. Like the weight on a metronome you can change the frequency of the oscillation. I am working on a configuration that shortens the bob length as the rpm increases.
Shorter shifts are beneficial. Look for micro imbalance, starting with a well balanced and plumb wheel.
I am glad to see you are keeping a record of your experiments, I did not with my first experiment, I regret this very much because when I found the MT drawings, I had built many of them and if I had a camcorder at the time I could of posted them, so now they are lost, I now video all my builds that I can go back to and look at when I have similar designs.
Keep up the good work, Trevor
I have been wrong before!
I have been right before!
Hindsight will tell us!
To all those that build physical models, a few suggestions not neccesarily for us but for yourself.
When making videos for yourself to study, camera angle should be horizontal with the axle at a distance than can catch all of the movement and prefferably on a tripod. This angle will reduce any distortion of view and allow you to see "how far" things are moving. Grids can be layed over your playback screen to view quadrant action or any number of other factors.
Always have reference marks on your wheel and anything alse that you want to be able to see. It may seem trivial but is critical for accurate placement and speed calculation when watching your videos.
Although i highly recomend "feeling" your wheel moving it is also just as important to be able to stand back and watch it with forced input. I would recoment a simple belt friction drive system to spin your wheels and video them. These can be made from an expensive motor from grainger, a junkyard wiper motor or your drill (already has speed control), a pulley mounted to your wheels axle and then one mounted on the driver. connected with a used belt or elastic band, or rope. But what is important is that it is not perfect. You want enough torque to rotate the wheel but also it shoule be loose enough to allow your wheel to surge in whatever direction it wants. When watched in slow motion it is a good way to study the actions in your wheel.
Oh and lets not forget, a great labeling and sorting system for finding what you are looking for later. Lots of videos of failed attempts can bleed together if your looking for one late at nite. But if done correctly the videos can serve as the most valuable tool ever. You spend all that time to build and test, its important to have more than just a written description of what you thought was important at the time, with videos you can study future eureka moments on old wheels over and over.
Keep up the great work.
Dave
Ficticious forces??????????? Tell me more
Si mobile in circumferentia circuli feratur ea celeritate, quam acquirit cadendo ex
altitudine, quae sit quartae parti diameter aequalis ; habebit vim centrifugam suae
gravitati aequalem.
Dave wrote:Ficticious forces??????????? Tell me more
Wikipedia wrote:A fictitious force, also called a pseudo force,[1] d'Alembert force[2][3] or inertial force,[4][5] is an apparent force that acts on all masses in a non-inertial frame of reference, such as a rotating reference frame.
Centrifugal force is considered a fictitious force because it is kind of like a poltergeist that can appear then disappear, and thus is not considered as a real force, even though it is very real and can do real work of moving/shifting weights.
If I may add to your instructions of video taking;
Pay heed to your backdrop or what your wheel is in front of.
My biggest pain is to view a wheel test in front of a cluttered or dim lit indoor background. Even a bed sheet hung behind your test wheel would be of great help.
Jim,
I was being sarcastic, thanks and sorry. I did not think i would get a serious response from others, i was hoping to hear what our newest members thoughts were regarding it.
Ralph,
I completely agree, I usually don't take the time for a clear background when presenting things to the forum, (but i will now) when i am running actual videos on my tests I have a section of the garage that has a graduated scale painted into the wall, and the wall is completely white otherwise. It allows me to rudimentaly scale rotation speed, I know my camera speed, 30FPS and can rerun ant 15 fps through the computer which allows me to see how many degrees it took me to accomplish a certain transition per frame 1/15 sec the rest is easy math even for a dope like me.
I cannot express how much the building eperience was enhanced when i was able to view items in slow motion. So many things are happening sometimes that we just don't see the forest. I highly recommend a video camera, i am using an insignia flip from best buy that was only $100, money well spent in the search, And very useful for family videos also :) LOL.
OK
Dave
Si mobile in circumferentia circuli feratur ea celeritate, quam acquirit cadendo ex
altitudine, quae sit quartae parti diameter aequalis ; habebit vim centrifugam suae
gravitati aequalem.
For those interested, Target has hand held weights, 10 and 20 pounds. The two ends screw off of each of the weights leaving you with nice rubber coated 5 or 10 pound weights that will take a 12mm threaded rod of whatever length you would like. In addition, copper plumbing 'T's accept this threaded rod into the vertical part of the 'T" where it can be pinned in place. Then you slip the horizontal part of the "T" over a 1/2 inch bolt that projects out from your wheel, and you have a very nice pivot point, easily constructed.I have several of these weights, but am working with a small wheel using smaller weights until I get a design I believe will work. Mr. Metric in San Jose, CA can order the threaded rod, and I am sure there are other distributors.
I already have my weights, rods, "T"s, and a four foot wheel, but that's in the future.
By the way, the 1/4 inch copper pipe 'T's" work exactly the same way with smaller bolts, and I am using those with my smaller build; with smaller threaded rod and washers for weights.
I was being sarcastic, thanks and sorry. I did not think i would get a serious response from others, i was hoping to hear what our newest members thoughts were regarding it.
