Question for Bill

[Fletcher]

Yes, we will see in due course, Scott has also theorised about AL - IMO applying it coherently is a humdinger of a problem & we are prejudiced by our familiarity with its application today.

[graham]

While we're on the subject of air, has anyone considered "air pressure" ?

At sea level the atmospheric pressure is 14.6 lb/squ in. That's quite a force, and maybe the "secret force" missing in this puzzle.
If a weight on the ascending side were supported by a type of bellows so that as the weight is pulled down by gravity it will create a vacuum in the bellows, then this vacuum will act much like a spring . However because this spring is nothing more than air pressure it's possible that there will be no backtorque, the seemingly insurmountable problem with weights and springs.
The weight is floating on air pressure as it passes through the approx 8 to 10 oclock position in its orbit around the axle !!!

Bessler was an organ maker and was familiar with bellows and air pressure so it's possible he used these skills in his wheels.

Am I crazy ??

Graham

[Stewart]

In the AP poem Bessler throws in a what seemingly is a random word visualization about have you ever seen sparrows fighting over crumbs on a mill wheel

There is no mention of crumbs - it seems unlikely that you'd find crumbs on a waterwheel anyway. Bessler seems to be saying that the birds are pecking horribly at each other (fighting).

I also support Fletcher with his AL ideas, but they are difficult to simulate and build and so I've not been able to help him much so far. I think any air related phenomena is worth investigating, as there are so many references to air/wind/birds - Fletcher has pointed out many of them, but I've come across a lot more that you won't be aware of yet.

Graham - you are right to think of studying air pressure. I've done experiments with bellows and air pressure, and played around with many designs that use them.

A lot of inspiration came again from MT - they start at figure 56, and on that page is the handwritten word 'blasebalg' which means 'bellows'. Also on that page in large lettered handwriting are the words 'WIND-Machinen' which means 'wind machines' (In Johns MT book he has put 'pe mo = machines' for those words). The MT wind figures I like the most are 60 & 61. There are a large number of figures in MT that contain bellows - some intended for use with air, others for water or mercury - some are very ingenious.

We shouldn't overlook the part in AP where Bessler says that his organ building experiences led him on the path to PM. It seems to me that the air related parts (bellows, reservoirs, canals, windchests, pipes etc) are the only things that differ from any other machine of his time. You had to be a master of pneumatics to build an organ, and would have to understand how to control air pressure well. Also, the flue pipes in organs are ingenious, and produce sound by causing the air stream blown across the mouth to vibrate using the Bernoulli principle:

http://theatreorgans.com/technical/index.htm

Stewart

[graham]

Hi Stewart, yes I do believe atmospheric pressure well worth investigating as the secret factor.
It is also worth noting that the only workable device that was ever built was Cox's Perpetual motion clock circa 1700's.
Driven by changes in Barometric pressure on a column of mercury it ran for many years before it was drained of its mercury to be moved.

What I like about atmospheric pressure is it would seem to be a reactionless way to lift a weight, freely available anywhere.
When coupled with gravity it might be what Bessler observed in nature.

Graham

[Stewart]

Hi Graham

I actually think that atmospheric pressure is probably the least likely use of air pressure in a Bessler wheel. In my opinion it's not changeable or predictable enough to be used to cause the wheel to perform the way we know it did. The other problem would be that it would not be considered as a true perpetual motion machine in Bessler's time. If air pressure was used then I think Bessler would be creating the pressure using bellows etc.

All the best
Stewart


EDIT:

I actually think that atmospheric pressure is probably the least likely use of air pressure in a Bessler wheel.

I meant changes in barometric pressure here.

[winkle]

In the AP poem Bessler throws in a what seemingly is a random word visualization about have you ever seen sparrows fighting over crumbs on a mill wheel

There is no mention of crumbs - it seems unlikely that you'd find crumbs on a waterwheel anyway. Bessler seems to be saying that the birds are pecking horribly at each other (fighting).



Stewart

i thought he was talking about the mill grind stone

[Stewart]

Hi Winkle

i thought he was talking about the mill grind stone

The word Bessler uses is 'Mühl-Rad' (Mühlrad) - which means 'mill-wheel'. The term mill-wheel refers to the waterwheel used to power mills. The word Bessler uses for grindstone in DT is 'Schleiffstein' (Schleifstein).

I'm not sure what prompted Mike to add the word 'crumbs' to his translation - there is no word in the original text that could be interpreted as such, and I can't see why there would generally be 'crumbs' on either the mill-wheel or the grindstone. I suppose they could be fighting over 'food', but that isn't necessarily the only reason they would fight and it's certainly not specifically mentioned in the text that they are fighting over food.

All the best
Stewart

[Fletcher]

There is no mention of crumbs - it seems unlikely that you'd find crumbs on a waterwheel anyway. Bessler seems to be saying that the birds are pecking horribly at each other (fighting).

Thanks for the clarification Stewart - yes, a mill-wheel - perhaps the mind picture of birds fighting/pecking each other on a mill-wheel conjured a subconscious association of Bessler offering up 'crumbs' ;)

[DrWhat]

If you replace the human figures in the Toys Image at the 'end' of MT with birds, and replace the hammers with beaks, the images then look like pecking birds.

[Fletcher]

While we're on the subject of air, has anyone considered "air pressure" ?

At sea level the atmospheric pressure is 14.6 lb/squ in. That's quite a force, and maybe the "secret force" missing in this puzzle.

If a weight on the ascending side were supported by a type of bellows so that as the weight is pulled down by gravity it will create a vacuum in the bellows, then this vacuum will act much like a spring . However because this spring is nothing more than air pressure it's possible that there will be no backtorque, the seemingly insurmountable problem with weights and springs.

The weight is floating on air pressure as it passes through the approx 8 to 10 oclock position in its orbit around the axle !!!

Bessler was an organ maker and was familiar with bellows and air pressure so it's possible he used these skills in his wheels.

Am I crazy ??

Not crazy at all Graham !

N.B. Air is a liquid & the weight of a column of air causes the pressure differential we call 'atmospheres', so air pressure is gravity dependent [in the case of barometric devices] but can otherwise be induced using mechanical compression e.g. from weights [still gravity dependent].

I also took a long & hard look at how to use pneumatics [air pressure], particularly in relation to bellows [pistons would be a modern day equivalent] - I came up with various designs that used vacuums & positive pressure differentials, transfer pipes, flap valves, weights, open systems, etc - many a white board session with Rainer in the hope it could be simulated on wm2d - while it could be simulated using a rudimentary purpose built formula [a similar formula to the one we used for the hydraulic/buoyancy simulations in earlier attempts at using an additional environmental factor] every design had one major failing !

To compress or open a bellows/piston [creating an increase in pressure or partial vacuum, say, within a bellows or vessel] required a weight or weighted lever to be applied to the bellows - in the final analysis this was "Trading Height for Width" & so was constrained to operate as any other pure OOB design in this regard - these were our experiences.

[Fletcher]

I actually think that atmospheric pressure is probably the least likely use of air pressure in a Bessler wheel.

In my opinion it's not changeable or predictable enough to be used to cause the wheel to perform the way we know it did.

The other problem would be that it would not be considered as a true perpetual motion machine in Bessler's time. If air pressure was used then I think Bessler would be creating the pressure using bellows etc.

Something to consider - a non-conservative force would be useful in a wheel i.e. one that could work in more than one direction.

[winkle]

Stewart

i understand what you're saying but in a general conversational sense they may be somewhat interchangeable

in my view having the true reading of his words is important

on the other hand as written they don't really tell anything that can readily be understood

if we take Mr. Bessler's words as written there is no way out of this mess

with out question they have to be interpreted and finessed into some sensible meaning that could cause a wheel to turn

water wheels turn fast grinding stones turn slow

i can readily visualize sparrows fighting on a slow turning grinding stone but not so much the other

[Stewart]

I actually think that atmospheric pressure is probably the least likely use of air pressure in a Bessler wheel.

Sorry, what I meant to say there was 'changes in barometric pressure'.

Stewart

[winkle]

double post

[Stewart]

i understand what you're saying but in a general conversational sense they may be somewhat interchangeable

I disagree. There's a big difference between a mill-wheel and a grindstone.

on the other hand as written they don't really tell anything that can readily be understood
if we take Mr. Bessler's words as written there is no way out of this mess
with out question they have to be interpreted and finessed into some sensible meaning that could cause a wheel to turn

I agree we obviously need to interpret what he is saying and understand the meaning - however we aren't going to be able to do that until we know exactly what he is saying in his own words. It may well be irrelevant where or why the birds are fighting once we understand the analogy he is making here, but at this point I haven't thought about it enough to figure it.

water wheels turn fast grinding stones turn slow
i can readily visualize sparrows fighting on a slow turning grinding stone but not so much the other

Bessler says it's a stationary mill-wheel.

Anyway, I'm still working on this bit and if I figure out exactly what the analogy means then I'll post about it. If anyone has any thoughts on the analogy then please let me know!

Stewart