Part Three is the Charm

[johannesbender]

The design has, in fact, progressed to the point where there is nothing supercritical about the exact disposition of the weights - an ounce more or less, here or there, makes not a scrap of difference to the Wheel, which will hold its course serenely without 'turning a hair'.

I think this is an important piece of text , there is so much more to think about when you start thinking about what kind of mechanics could Bessler possibly be talking about.

For instance , there was a time when the exact disposition of weights were supercritical to function , but the design developed to a point where it did not matter anymore.

Disposition of weights , if we are talking about weights going in and out , why would the exact disposition have been supercritical at one time , and then not anymore .

If the weights are guided by limited movement for example between stops on arms , or going in and out limited to arms they are fixed on , or limited by the structure , how would an "ounce more or less here or there" even be possible ?

If the weights were free to "roll" inside some guided slots or shape , the also I cannot see how "ounce more or less here or there" would be possible .
If this was a "paternoster" type design I also cannot see how "ounce more or less here or there" would be possible.
If this was a design where there was suppose to be more weight on one side than the other , then how on earth would there be a scenario of an "ounce more or less here or there" since weight would be hard guided by something.

It would seem to indicate weight could move more or less in some unrestricted manner perhaps in X and Y, for example a swinging weight might produce an "ounce more or less here or there" scenario .

What else could also do this ?
Perhaps timing?

[Sam Peppiatt]

mryy, When the yellow weight falls, won't the wheel just turn and not do anything to the spring---------------------------Sam

[mryy]

'm sorry I am still not following. I'm sure you know what you're saying and others know as well. I believe all this discussion of energy applies to tethered wheels. With the proposed design once that free flying weight lands on the 2:00 lever the wheel should turn regardless.

No, energy applies to anything that moves. If an object is moving in contact with the wheel, it has energy. If it is flying through the air it has energy. If it is held at 2:00 in a catch mechanism, it has energy.

Again, the above definitely applies to tethered wheels.

When that small weight lands it doesn't need to give to back to the system

. It could lose its energy to the universe for all I know and the wheel should turn. The system detects a *new or fresh* net torque the moment the weight lands and acts on that. Torque is simply a function of mass, acceleration (gravity) and radial position. LOL is not broken.

The weight lands at 2:00. When it drops from 2-6, (assumed movement) the wheel rotates. The weight has given its energy, (PE at 2) to the rotation of the wheel (KE). MGH, where height is the distance from its landing point at 2 to its bottom position at 6. Yes torque is important, but we don't need to calculate it in this instance.

Ultimately, your large weight, due to the function it has to perform will give a counter torque greater than that you will receive from your light weight.

Of course an object moving under acceleration has energy. I still don't see how your energy budget applies to my design. Can you explain how this counter torque of the large weight happens?

I think a test build (maybe sim) will eventually decide the matter...

[mryy]

mryy, When the yellow weight falls, won't the wheel just turn and not do anything to the spring---------------------------Sam

When the yellow rolls over onto the bottom of the blue guide, it leaves the spring under imbalanced high tension (the weight caused this tension by cocking down the lever.) The imbalanced spring will then unwind immediately and swing the lever up. An important point is that the weight can't free fall onto the guide before 6:00; it has to transition onto it maintaining continuous physical contact from lever to guide. If there's ever a free fall the descending side will be lighter by one weight during a very brief moment, possibly causing back torque of the wheel.

[Sam Peppiatt]

I see mryy, I'm starting to ketch on--------------------Sam

[mryy]

I see mryy, I'm starting to ketch on--------------------Sam

When everyone understands my design, I believe it will have satisfied the "simplicity" condition expressed by Karl and B.

LOL

[WaltzCee]

. .. .. .
I think a test build (maybe sim) will eventually decide the matter...

that's genius.

[Tarsier79]

Can you explain how this counter torque of the large weight happens?

Every time you use a weight to do something in a wheel, its counter torque will be at least that of the work it is doing. Experience from real world builds and sims.

I have edited your drawing to show what I believe will be closer to what happens. The red line shows the position of the weight to its pivot point. Also remember it has to compress a spring strong enough to shoot the light weight up quite high comparatively. The red weight flies up. It has used most of its energy flying upwards, so it is not going to compress the spring, or lift the heavy weight.

The heavy weight at 2 pulls with the spring towards the center. At 3, the yellow wieght on its lever is basically vertical, the spring pushes it inwards. Somewhere around 4:30 -5:00 ish, gravity will start to push down the heavy weight enough to compress the spring. Now look at the negative OB your heavy weight has on the wheel.

[Tarsier79]

To simplify your design, you could have a single heavy ball rolling at the bottom. As it rolls over the lever it compresses, as it rolls off the lever, it shoots the small ball upwards. The only catch mechanism you need is to catch the small ball and hold it on the end of the spring lever until it is shot off.

(It is still the same principle, and has the same problem.)

[WaltzCee]

. .. .. .
[The Center Of Mass is easy to calculate. Draw a straight line between weights and mark where they would balance on that line (a simple ratio).

. .. .. .

CoM is easier to construct. I tried uploading a graphic yet can't get it to attach to the post. Humm, two funny, of cause.

:) ok, it was just a test.

[Tarsier79]

I wish you hadn't. I threw that diagram together in a hurry. The little weight should shoot off after the large mass has rolled off, so more around 7:30 I guess.

[WaltzCee]

Your every other wish is my command. maybe. . .

If you were to delete the pic I think it would eliminate it from my post.

[mryy]

Can you explain how this counter torque of the large weight happens?

Every time you use a weight to do something in a wheel, its counter torque will be at least that of the work it is doing. Experience from real world builds and sims.

I have edited your drawing to show what I believe will be closer to what happens. The red line shows the position of the weight to its pivot point. Also remember it has to compress a spring strong enough to shoot the light weight up quite high comparatively. The red weight flies up. It has used most of its energy flying upwards, so it is not going to compress the spring, or lift the heavy weight.

The heavy weight at 2 pulls with the spring towards the center. At 3, the yellow wieght on its lever is basically vertical, the spring pushes it inwards. Somewhere around 4:30 -5:00 ish, gravity will start to push down the heavy weight enough to compress the spring. Now look at the negative OB your heavy weight has on the wheel.

That seems counter-intuitive that the heavy weight generates a counter torque (CT). You marked a yellow line at the 5:00 lever. Is this the negative OB? Does this supposed CT occur at the moment the heavy weight transitions onto the blue guide and the lever swings up? When you say CT exactly what is meant? For example do you mean torque on the descending side goes down while the ascending side stays the same. Or, the ascending side's torque goes up while the descending stays the same. Or, the ascending side goes up while the descending side goes down. In all three above scenarios I guess there is a net torque in favor of the ascending (assuming the blue guides are smooth instead of zigzag).

In this version the red weight is set to have sufficient energy to reach the 2:00 lever AND trigger the lever to swing out partially via the tip spring under tension. When the red weight is ejected at the bottom of the wheel does it also produced a counter torque?

Again, this all seems counter-intuitive that a weight doing work will produce such an effect.

[Tarsier79]

So, to confirm: The heavy yellow weight pulls the black lever against spring tension... Not only does the small weight have to fly upwards, it also lifts the large weight to the left and starts compressing the spring? I guess the spring compression could be started later.

So, to lift the heavy weight at 2ish: Just from eyeballing it on your image, your heavy weight will have to be somewhere in the order of 7-10 X the weight of the small one to impact with some force. The heavy weight to the pivot is around 45 degrees, meaning its apparent weight will be around 1/2. So the small weight needs enough energy to push at least 3.5x its own weight upwards, meaning we will have to give it more energy, strengthening the spring, meaning the heavy weight will need to be even heavier. That can be calculated with simultaneous equation.

No, the counter torque occurs usually just before the movement transaction occurs. So in your case, the weight is in the wrong position, causing negative OB like my edited drawing. It will be in the wrong position until the angle becomes such that the weight pushes vertically enough on the spring to compress it.

[mryy]

So, to confirm: The heavy yellow weight pulls the black lever against spring tension... Not only does the small weight have to fly upwards, it also lifts the large weight to the left and starts compressing the spring? I guess the spring compression could be started later.

So, to lift the heavy weight at 2ish: Just from eyeballing it on your image, your heavy weight will have to be somewhere in the order of 7-10 X the weight of the small one to impact with some force. The heavy weight to the pivot is around 45 degrees, meaning its apparent weight will be around 1/2. So the small weight needs enough energy to push at least 3.5x its own weight upwards, meaning we will have to give it more energy, strengthening the spring, meaning the heavy weight will need to be even heavier. That can be calculated with simultaneous equation.

More or less so. The small weight could be less than 7-10x the heavy one. This has to be determined by experiments (or sim?). Do not forget the compressed spring at the tip of the lever which swings it out when triggered by the small weight striking the launch arm. That tip spring can be adjusted for optimum effect. So both the small weight and the tip spring cock the lever at 2:00.

No, the counter torque occurs usually just before the movement transaction occurs. So in your case, the weight is in the wrong position, causing negative OB like my edited drawing. It will be in the wrong position until the angle becomes such that the weight pushes vertically enough on the spring to compress it.

What I imagine happening is that by 3:00 the heavy yellow weight (with the help of the striking small red weight) cocks the lever completely so that the spring is fully compressed/wound. Just before 6:00 the yellow transitions to the guide. The lever (which is swinging up) continues moving left as the red rolls down the launch arm. When the *tip* of the launching lever is about 5:30 - 6:00, the red weight launches. I am still not clear about this counter torque effect you speak of.