The Value of Bessler's Low-Wattage Outputs

[primemignonite]

The recent topic "Mechanical power calculation (help needed)" is a really interesting one, and the link provided by Jim_Mich as help most fascinating.

These have inspired me to do something of my own, as regards the (low) power output of Bessler's wheels, even the biggest of Castle Weissenstein.

I will choose the second version, the "Draschwitz", and construct it with the thickness doubled (thus providing twice the moving weight), and assume a resultant doubling of output to 132.52 Watts.

Drashwitz 66.26 W x 2 = 132.52 W.

I don't know what might be appropriate, but 'will also assume a 96% efficiency of transformation to electricity, resulting in a lowered 127.22 Watts.

No assumptions are needed about this part: there are 24 hours in a day and an average of 30 days per month. If one were to run the wheel and generator for all that time, one would have 720 hours worth of work put-out.

24 hrs x 30 days= 720 hrs

Needing KWHs we do

720 hrs X 127.22 W = 91598.4 WH/1000, or, 91.598 KWH.

My power company charges me $0.079/KWH for electricity, therefor we get

91.598KWH x $0.079/ KWH = $7.24

Hmmm!

Assuming the knowledge of how to build it and having done all the labor to do-so, that's an awful lot of work for a few bucks-worth back!

OK, let's do the numbers FOR A YEAR!

$7.24 x 12 months = $86.88

Still, a big "hmmm!"

Jim_Mich, Jonathan, Hans von Lieven, am I getting this right??? Looks pretty dreary as a venal, commercial proposition. :-(

James

[Jonathan]

Seems right to me, and goes to show that you don't have to fear the MIB, they got more important things to do.

[LustInBlack]

Sounds to me like perpetual money tho.

Think larger scale, think advanced material.

[jim_mich]

I once did some rough calculations and figured one would need a 12 foot (3.66m) diameter wheel turning at about 45 RPM carrying about 5000 Lbs (2268kg) of weights in order to produce about 10 HP needed to power a typical household. The thickness of the wheel would be about one foot if steel weights were used. If cheaper cast concrete weights were used the thickness grows to about 3 foot.

[ovyyus]

Jim, that's assuming Bessler's concept can be scaled as you suppose. On the other hand, if we assume that Bessler did in fact maximize his power to volume ratio then a 12 foot diameter wheel designed to output 10HP would need to be, based on an overestimate of 150 W output per 1.5 feet thickness, over 30 feet thick!

[primemignonite]

Thank you all for your interesting views.

Jim-Mich, your idea of that larger and thicker configuration seems a good one, if do-able. If going for something commercial, that would be viable, assuming really cheap construction costs, which I do believe would be the case. (The promising advantages of the technologically primitive as married to the high. I can't wait!)

Bill, yes, of course, IF the things could have been re-scaled. Sure can't prove it, but I'll bet we'll find that they can be, and further, that what Bessler could do back then was necessarily constrained by the limited strengths and lengths of the materials, such that he had access-to.

LustinB., it would be 'something from nothing' all right, and thus, as-such, set the lab-coated wise ones back onto their heels for a time, a place where they richly belong, in just return for all the rhetorical beating done us, over these lonely centuries of searching! On that count ALONE, the glorious spectacle of it would be worth all the effort of re-discovery! YES, for sure, LB, just a little SFN, would be rewarding.

Just think, LB, given that and with confidence-absolute, we would (will!) be able to proclaim unto them potently, irrevocably "In the end, we knew! YOU did not!" (Invest in crow!)

Johnathan, I hope you are right about that, but still, 'they' might not see it as being so benign, as we would like. I do prefer your rosier outlook though.

James

http://dictionary.reference.com/dic?q=resultant&search=
http://dictionary.reference.com/dic?q=resulting&search=

[mickegg]

Hmmmm


How many KW hours do you use a month?

Here in UK the cost is now $0.22 per KWh....... bring on the wheel! LOL!


Regards

Mick

[jim_mich]

Last month was 841 KWh and cost me about $91. Of course if I had a Bessler type wheel the usage would be much higher as it would also be used to heat the house and heat water and for cooking and I'd have it charging up an electric car. And if the energy was free I'd probably have it melting the snow and ice on the porch steps and maybe a short stretch of sidewalk. And I'd heat the garage so I'd have a warm car to drive and my fingers don't freeze to the steering wheel when I start it up.

I figure 10 HP would be on the shy side once the energy was free.

[mickegg]

Thanks Jim

I agree that usage would rise if one could generate enough; for the same reasons you give...although cooking is already electric in this house!

Also,if one wished, here in the UK you can elect to have your electricity from "green" sources........................at a surcharge per KWh of course.

Regards

Mick

[primemignonite]

Cripes!

Mick, honestly, I had no idea they cost that much elsewhere (but should have thought-so). Given that, yours would naturally be a differing perspective.

Mine was made of a limited little calculation, based on what my power company charges. I live near our Hoover Dam (damned impressive!) and so, I guess maybe we pay a lot less than many others? Of course!

YES! Some more input, as to what is charged to various others, would be of use here.

How about down under, Bill? What do you pay? Anyone in Hawaii? How about in Greenland? (The wheel can operate in the cold unaffected, according to Bessler, and our modern bearings can withstand extremes not even imaginable by him, way back then.

How much does power cost in the Sahara? On shipboard (mount that Bessler sucker on gimbal bearings!)

Sure, ". . . bring on the wheel! LOL!" - Mick

James

[primemignonite]

Sorry, Mick. I forgot to answer your question completely, getting so wound-up as I do.

In June '06, I used 202 KWH costing me $28.18 (They tack-on a whole lot of BS extra charge stuff for their girlfriends' frills. Here, all is now de-regulated and free-wheeling, thanks to the (thank God) outgoing Grand Chief Magistrate, and so, they can charge as they will and do, according to the rubber-stamp, paid-off public utilities commission. It, the very much for-profit "utility", now desires still more - 17% as they are asking! Yet another reason for cutting them loose from their monopoly mischief, in order to do other real jobs, making things of true use to the market, or farming or whatever, rather than luxuriating in their Swiss chalets on our sweat and toil!)

I operate my existence on the EXTREME economy plan, giving the batards (And no matter what the out-of-control, commercial species!) the least of me as is humanly possible.

(You and I are but two things to them: 1. energy, and 2. free-will. They, as do all who participate in predation, seek to have them both for nothing, if and when we allow it, which is most of the time, tragically! Are we to be amused at their dirty pickings forever?)

See what I mean, Mick? Wound-up!

Hope that answered your question OK.

Thanks, and be-well always.

James

[david jenkins]

James;
Just a thought, how about thinking in 3D. I would rather have four or six small wheels on one axle than a twelve footer. With enough torque you could raise the gearing and produce more. Just a thought.


Dave

[AB Hammer]

LOL

Bessler said, if you need more power just add more cross arms to it. :)

[jim_mich]

When the wheels were smaller they turned faster. It is a matter of physics. When they were built bigger they turned slower but produced more bang per pound. Again it is a matter of physics. Pound for pound a larger wheel will probably perform the same as a smaller wheel. I base these statement on the assumption that a weight moves outward and back inward on the wheel a set percentage of wheel radius (for whatever reason) as per Bessler's statements.

If a wheel diameter is increased by a factor of 2 then the weight increases by a factor of four. If the thickness also is increased by two then the weight is increased by a factor of 8. The leverage is increased by a factor of 2 bringing the increase of power to 16 times. But now the centrifugal forces acting on all the internal components has increased by a factor of 2. Because the moving weights need time to move outward and inward twice as far they have to speed up and slow down twice as fast to make their move. Whatever moves the weights (be it gravity or something else) will need more time to act. For this reason I calculate the wheel will need to rotate a little slower, probably about the half the square root of two slower, which would be about 70.71 percent of the speed of the smaller half-sized wheel.

Thus if the wheel size is doubled it requires 8 times the material to build while its torque power increases by about 11.314 times while rotating at a speed that is 0.7071 times the speed of the smaller wheel thus outputting 8 times the power of the smaller wheel.

So it boils down to building 8 smaller wheels or one larger wheel that is twice the diameter and thickness. I would think a 12 to 16 foot wheel resting in a 6 to 8 foot deep pit (or basement cellar) would be the most cost effective.

I think there was probably room inside Bessler's the wheel for more cross arms. But I think Bessler's light weight wooden wheel was not be strong enough for more cross bars.

[graham]

In Connecticut we pay 0.232 per KWH when all the added on charges are included.
We pay close to the highest cost in the USA . I think NY is even higher.
We got a notice recently that they are requesting a rate increase and one of the reasons was reduced demand and an increase in uncollectable accounts.

So here we have people who are being punished for cutting back and conserving because of the high cost of electricity here . And on top of that we have to bear the burden of those who can no longer afford to pay anymore.

Bring on the wheel !!!!!

Graham