The missing part of the 'keenie/buzzsaw' wheels: the portrait of Bessler

[path_finder]

Remember this early link, to Corpus Clock & Chronophage (marvellous mechanical modern clock in Cambridge).
See here (again): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHO1JTNPPOU
Look with attention the sequence starting at 3:43 time of the video.
You will observe the principle to be used for the 'keenie/buzzsaw' wheels: a sliding grid where the correct distance between the holes make the job.

IMHO the portrait of Bessler is another important clue with the purpose to show us how important is the hole, the portrait being the grid and the face of Bessler being the weight.

With this new approach, there should be not only two parts (outer and inner wheels) but also a third one: a rotating crown with some grove at the correct places.
Until now we neglected this part because we were all with the hope that the mutual motion of the both parts were time adjusted enough for maintaining the weights locked inside the both parts. But there are so many holes at the circumference of these both parts, it is impossible to make an half turn for a single weight without to loose it in an undesirable hole.
If we want to catch a weight into the inner wheel at 2:00 per example and release it into the outer wheel at 7:00 per example, and to keep it strong catched during the full travel, the only reasonable way is to lock this weight in his hole by a circular crown, where the inner rim of the crown forces the axle to be sticked at the outer rim of the inner wheel.
In the drawing below (not the final version, just for the understanding of the concept), the crown is in yellow.
The red weight is the active weight, transfered from the outer wheel into the inner wheel at 2:00, and maintained on the inner wheel for a full half turn clockwise.
The blue weight is the virtual weight, coming from the disappearance of the red weight, and acting counterclockwise on the outer wheel
When the red weight will arrive into the grove at 7:00 the blue weight will be in the vicinity of 6:00 or 5:00 (slowly because the high inertia of the outer wheel).

[Grimer]

That's an interesting connection with the Corpus Christi clock, path_finder.

This thread is beginning to remind me of that James Burke's BBC series.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connections_(TV_series)

And while on the subject of connections I have seen the the elastic bounce of a weight back to the point from which it was dropped, the two arms (which are straightened out in the Keenie when the gravitational drop is transduced into torque strain energy) comprise an adiabatic change analogous the Carnot adiabatic changes - and the Rubber Band Gravity Motor for that matter.

This means that beside being viewed in the language of clocks the Keenie can also be viewed as a Carnot Type energy cycle with gravity as the quasi-heat source.

I have had a cut at casting the Keenie in Carnot terms before but could never quite get it sufficiently together to be convincing rather than suggestive.

[mickegg]

Hmmmm

.....shame the weights don't pass each on the "Keenie" wheel!

Regards

Mick

[Grimer]

The weights don't need to pass each other on the Keenie wheel as you will see from reading the relevant posts. A weight leaves the outer wheel for the inner wheel at 2, say and returns to the same slot in the outer wheel at 4, to the same slot that it left at 2 in other words.

[path_finder]

Instead to use the inner wheel as transporter, there is a better and more simpler way: the Bernoulli's path.
This cycloid can be approximated by a simple circle, keeping valid the principle.
On the animation below the inner wheel has been replaced by a drum with two holes (the entrance at 2:00 and the exit at 7:00)
The weight can be some spherical balls, but also some cylinders like Bessler.
The noise of the shock is coming from the jump of the balls just after the release from the outer wheel.
They fall first accelerating vertically then following the circular path of the guide until the door at 7:00.

In this concept there are always some balls free, not linked at any hole. It is similar with the game of the kids named 'duck,duck,goose' or 'grounders' ('chat-perché' in french), where you must find a refuge, the cat being this kid searching a free place.

Note: this animation is not fully accurate, in particular as you can see some holes not empty are filled.
This is coming from the fact only a couple of weight is shown (for a better understanding of the principle).
It is not difficult to see what happens when all balls fall at 2:00, leaving free the holes incoming at 7:00 on the outer wheel.

[Grimer]

That is incredibly ingenious. Congratulations.

VIVE L'ENTENTE CORDIALE!

I must confess I didn't follow the first gif closely enough and I'm still trying to get my head around the second.

Outer high inertia - inner low inertia, that fits.

But I don't see any strain energy involvement which is essential in my previous argument.

If it does work it's a lot simpler and easier to understand.

Also previously the movement of the weights was always clockwise but now you have introduced a counterclockwise element. Perhaps this eliminates the need for strain energy involvement.

I have to go an pick up my grandson from school so I give it more consideration when I get back.

Oh and the English game is called musical chairs.

[path_finder]

Dear Grimer,

Many thanks for the exact translation. In France we use the same word for the government changes of ministers, with the exception this game is never funny.

I confess this last design is far from the double inertia concept.
If I should class this design it should by classified into the 'maxwell daemon' variety.
IMHO there are four classes of successful gravity wheels (hamster, centrifugal, reciprocated and daemonic).
The dynamically overbalanced wheels can be included in the 'hamster' class under certain conditions.
The 'keenie/buzzsaw' wheels and the horizontal wheel (with a not totally vertical axis) are included in the centrifugal class.
The Tesla gravity engine and some others of my own wheels shall be included in the 'reciprocator' class.
The demoniac class includes all wheels where an artefact is used for contourning the standard laws of physics.

This above design is obviously of the last class, modifying the path of the normal gravity process.
But on the other hand the power is gained just by an asymmetrical distribution of the weights, and therefore in the 'hamster' class.
Note that in this case the hamster is virtual, because the disappearance of a weight at 2:00 creates a virtual hamster at 7:00 in the descending side of the wheel this time.
At least the torque gained by the outer blue wheel is not only coming from this virtual weight, but also by the transferred weight after its arrival on the outer wheel: there are in fact two weights acting on the left side between 8:00 and 6:00 (note the dark blue weight changes its color at 6:00 because not active anymore).
The Bernoulli problem was at that time a common subject of discussion, but in the suggested design above the path of the transferred weight inside the inner space follows the rule of the Bernoulli cycloid, and will arrive at 8:00 more early than any other path.

Surprisingly some clues can find now a value.
This is the case of the Bach's canon indicating a full reverse of the melody, and in addition like a Moebius strip.
If the outer wheel is supplied with 12 refuges alternatively empty and full, there are FIVE weight permanently located on this rim.
As indicated the 'musical chairs' game of the kids in the small street (Gasse) is also another clue.
This is related too with the 'escamotage' concept developed by John Collins.

Like for the four classes suggested above, this design can be developed in so many different ways that a lot of patents can be obtained by a large population of requesters, based on a wide panel of improvement in the practical realization. This is the reason why IMHO a patent in this domain is futile and almost a loss of time and money.Look what's happened with the mouse invented in the PARC of Xerox.

Engelbart never received any royalties for it, as his patent ran out before it became widely used in personal computers.

I don't take part of the trolls - as said by Jim_Mich - recommending do not deposit a patent.
I recommend nothing. Everybody is free to throw its money across the windows as he want to.

[Grimer]

Having thought about it more I'm afraid I'm not happy.

So that we avoid confusion lets call this Keenie Mark 3 and mine Keenie Mark 2 - or K3 and K2 for short.

If you follow the red weight you will see it pops into a hole after the blue weight. If you now keep your finger on it and follow it round you will see that it does not deliver its weight at half turn but continues on for full term. However, a red weight is then shown as trying to pop into the same space.

Probably best we both continue developing K2 and K3 in parallel.

Edit: This post has crossed your last post to which I will give my attention now.

[path_finder]

As explained above the animation is not accurate. I will publish an updated version very soon.
The question is: at what position to open the door (1:00, 2:00 or 3:00) and at what position to return back into the outer wheel (8:00 like in this above animation, or 7:00).
Obviously we must keep empty a refuge every two places.
This should perhaps be solved by an ODD number of places.
Now regarding the question of the balance, and if we assume the precedent rules, don't forget the neutralization by pair of the inactive weights (see the drawing hereafter).
I do not pretend the design is finalized. In particular I'm asking myself if the half circle guide should be pendular, in view to adjust the two doors always at the most efficient position (the purpose of the two external pendulas of Bessler).
Anyway I will continue my studies on the 'inertia exchange' version of the keenie wheel. Don't worry about.

[Grimer]

Dear Grimer,

Many thanks for the exact translation. In France we use the same word for the government changes of ministers, with the exception this game is never funny.

I confess this last design is far from the double inertia concept.
If I should class this design it should by classified into the 'maxwell daemon' variety.
IMHO there are four classes of successful gravity wheels (hamster, centrifugal, reciprocated and daemonic).
The dynamically overbalanced wheels can be included in the 'hamster' class under certain conditions.
The 'keenie/buzzsaw' wheels and the horizontal wheel (with a not totally vertical axis) are included in the centrifugal class.
The Tesla gravity engine and some others of my own wheels shall be included in the 'reciprocator' class.
The demoniac class includes all wheels where an artefact is used for contourning the standard laws of physics.

This above design is obviously of the last class, modifying the path of the normal gravity process.
But on the other hand the power is gained just by an asymmetrical distribution of the weights, and therefore in the 'hamster' class.
Note that in this case the hamster is virtual, because the disappearance of a weight at 2:00 creates a virtual hamster at 7:00 in the descending side of the wheel this time.
At least the torque gained by the outer blue wheel is not only coming from this virtual weight, but also by the transferred weight after its arrival on the outer wheel: there are in fact two weights acting on the left side between 8:00 and 6:00 (note the dark blue weight changes its color at 6:00 because not active anymore).
The Bernoulli problem was at that time a common subject of discussion, but in the suggested design above the path of the transferred weight inside the inner space follows the rule of the Bernoulli cycloid, and will arrive at 8:00 more early than any other path.

Surprisingly some clues can find now a value.
This is the case of the Bach's canon indicating a full reverse of the melody, and in addition like a Moebius strip.
If the outer wheel is supplied with 12 refuges alternatively empty and full, there are FIVE weight permanently located on this rim.
As indicated the 'musical chairs' game of the kids in the small street (Gasse) is also another clue.
This is related too with the 'escamotage' concept developed by John Collins.

Like for the four classes suggested above, this design can be developed in so many different ways that a lot of patents can be obtained by a large population of requesters, based on a wide panel of improvement in the practical realization. This is the reason why IMHO a patent in this domain is futile and almost a loss of time and money.Look what's happened with the mouse invented in the PARC of Xerox.

Engelbart never received any royalties for it, as his patent ran out before it became widely used in personal computers.

I don't take part of the trolls - as said by Jim_Mich - recommending do not deposit a patent.
I recommend nothing. Everybody is free to throw its money across the windows as he want to.

On the subject of advice about patents, I think I will take a leaf out of your book and not offer unrequested advice in the future. As you say, everyone should be free to throw their money out of the window if they want to.

As regards the rest of your post I must confess I am out of my depth. I suppose it serves me right for ragging John Collins when he failed to get with my strain energy explanations.

One thing for sure, as soon as the first working wheel is demonstrated it will spark a host of working alternatives.

[path_finder]

After review of the question in relation with the filling of not empty locations, I can give a very simple solution:
The outer wheel must have a number of holes multiple of THREE: in that case there will be three sets of holes:
- a set of N holes (in light blue) containing the inactive weights (contributing to the inertia of the outer wheel and its balanced status), with the exception of this empty hole where was previously located the current falling weight (in white on the drawing below)
- two consecutive sets of N empty holes (in green and yellow on the drawing), where will be introduced ALTERNATIVELY the falling weights.
This three sets are used with a turn-over between them (one is inactive, then empty, then filled, this process changing at each turn).
In the drawing below we have chosen N=8, so far there are 24 holes.

In addition a pendular guide has a circular size corresponding to 180 grades minus one hole (in view to assume the turn-over).
In the keeling position the wheel will be balanced.
With a little 'gentle' push the system will start in the right direction and the pendulum will be automatically adjusted for the best efficiency (optimizing the synchronization).

I bold already the brand new and clean 'pétanque' balls from Decathlon in view to confirm all these assumptions.
http://www.petanque-america.com/

[Grimer]

"bold"???

I assume you mean bought, purchased.

That would cost £45 in England, $150 in the US. Cheap at the price. Even if it doesn't work the bowls could always be reused.

My builder used snooker balls on one of his builds. The beauty of snooker balls is that they are very uniform from ball to ball and come in a range of colours. I imagine they would be a lot more expensive though and you would probably have to buy lots of sets since I doubt if they sell individual colours.

I'll have to look into that.

Anyway, best of luck with the rest of your build. It will have to be fairly robust to take the weight of 24 boules. Sounds like a job for Fletcher. He's in Fiji so he could use coconuts.

Edit: you can buy individual snooker balls. They are about £5 each so a set of 8 red, 8 white and 8 blue to match the tricolour would be £120. Quite affordable.

Also, it would be easier to build a demonstration model since things would be lighter and smaller.

[Grimer]

Two quick points.

If the ball picks up rotational energy down the incline it wouldn't matter since it will be in the right direction to assist rotation of the high inertia wheel.

The dropped ball is suffering a 180 degree change in direction which implies a huge Jerk action. That must be good.

[Grimer]

doubled post

[Grimer]

How do you propose to match the speed of the red ball with the speed of the destination slot on the outer ring?

I can see a partial solution but it's not pretty.