Besslers wheel just a perfect illusion?

[ovaron]

Was Bessler just a gifted illusionist? It goes through my head after every failure. Then I take the book of John Collins again and convince me of the opposite.

Are we chasing a phantom ? I'm getting tired.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zUEkFl ... gs=pl%2Cwn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v2xnl6 ... gs=pl%2Cwn

[raj]

Those chasing Bessler's wheel may be chasing a phantom.
Those chasing a self-rotating wheel like me are chasing their ideas.

Raj

[thx4]

welcome to the club,
When nothing is going well, I think a boat can go up the headwind, I can't help but make the analogy with wind/gravity, and the ideas come back. :)

[Fletcher]

Hi ovaron .. it sure is a frustrating and fascinating hobby we all have. We have to balance our lives, be productive, and then in our spare time we invite failure and frustration, and our mind battles, to be our companions. What sane person would do that to themselves lol. It must be the mystery and need to know that drives us on. To solve the puzzle, or find the treasure analogies, providing you can keep the energy levels topped up to see it thru. The Bessler wheel feels a bit like 'Forrest Fenns treasure', is it still there to find, was it ever there at all, is someone pulling my chain with an elaborate ruse for their own amusement ?

Some like Raj, Mr V, and Ralph go their own way, developing their own ideas, taking little cognisance of the written information about Bessler and his story. Well I guess even Bessler must have put one foot in front of the other in the early days of his journey to destination then unknown. He did read up on others and their attempts at PM tho.

Others like me believe he left a map of sorts. This is within his various books, with so called clues etc. Not so much a linear follow the path treasure map to 'X' marks the spot, but imo more of a spacial mapping of his journey and his mechanical prize. You might think of it as more of a 3D map with some snakes and ladders for good measure. Tough but doable.

To that end I place far greater importance in the unpublished MT (John Collins), and witness statements, and a lesser importance to JB's other published works, which imo have another higher agenda to inform, entertain, refute, and befuddle.

IMO Bessler wasn't an illusionist, he certainly wasn't a phantom. He was a real and well documented person who built and demonstrated some machines. I believe his machines were the real deal. If so you wouldn't be able to get your money back by claiming he contravened the Consumers Guarantee Act citing not fit for purpose or misleading advertising.

FWIW Bessler finally knew the standard OOB wheel answer was always wrong, and why, and finally knew the correct question to ask instead of going straight to the answer. He said he found it where others had looked which is an obvious mind trap to the wrong answer, tho his solution must have a strong physical resemblance to the tried and failed, imo. And so that we don't have to reinvent the wheel (excuse the pun) and search blindly, he mentors us thru his various books, albeit from behind a veil.

ATEOTD we are a community, it is a place to share the load, experiences, opinions, get excited, get disappointed, perhaps stamp your feet, maybe once in a while get some valuable feedback, or mentor someone else. All in all a place to hang out without too much judgement for the sins of your hobby.

[raj]

There are 100s of wellknown wheel searchers before Bessler, on records, starting from Bhaskara since the 1100s.

Bessler found his wheel where others had already looked, because most likely he chased his own ideas.

Raj

[FunWithGravity2]

Its a thought that has crossed my minds and many others many times over,and probably been discussed here any number of times since the forum began. But it is still such a fascinating part of the journey. EVERYONE sees their wheel somehow in JBs clues. The sheer number of claims that "my design" matches all the clues perfectly is astounding. So clearly whatever wheel that's finally revealed will of course just as easily fit all the clues (according to each person own interpretation". Maybe the genius was creating such an elaborate number of easily relatable clues that JB knew whatever wheel was eventually discovered would be attributed to him.


Of course i don't believe that but its a thought that crosses my mind. When i have those moments of clarity and realize that we all know the secret to the wheel.


CD
FWG

[Fletcher]

You may well be right Dave. What also further confuses the issue is that JB says that some of his demonstrated wheels used different principles. Just what 'principles' was he talking about ? A clue might be that he seems to suggest in MT that many of the wheels (principles ?) there could be made to work. And some have very different methods (principles ?) of operation. Take MT's 44 and 48 for example. Nothing could be harder to see how to work, and that's why he teases with them I suspect.

But we do know that a Prime Mover is missing. It's been discussed many times. A Prime Mover added to a secondary OOB system apparently can make the whole thing work. But then for what is the purpose of the Plain-Jane unmemorable OOB system ? It's not for its torque producing abilities for sure because that's been 'done to death' thru the ages. The ol' JB 'they looked in places familiar to them', but 'where I found it' cliche.

A further question is perhaps can a Prime Mover apparatus or structure work sans OOB wheel ? I suspect not. They must be hand and glove, tho apparently just about any hand can fit the glove, to excuse the metaphor.

No wonder, as you suspect, we all think our projects fit nearly all the clues. And that when the solution is known "we all realize that we know the secret to the wheel" to quote you. If it's that simple then we all will recognize it for what it is as Karl apparently did.

[cloud camper]

Hi ovaron .. it sure is a frustrating and fascinating hobby we all have. We have to balance our lives, be productive, and then in our spare time we invite failure and frustration, and our mind battles, to be our companions. What sane person would do that to themselves lol. It must be the mystery and need to know that drives us on. To solve the puzzle, or find the treasure analogies, providing you can keep the energy levels topped up to see it thru. The Bessler wheel feels a bit like 'Forrest Fenns treasure', is it still there to find, was it ever there at all, is someone pulling my chain with an elaborate ruse for their own amusement ?

Some like Raj, Mr V, and Ralph go their own way, developing their own ideas, taking little cognisance of the written information about Bessler and his story. Well I guess even Bessler must have put one foot in front of the other in the early days of his journey to destination then unknown. He did read up on others and their attempts at PM tho.

Others like me believe he left a map of sorts. This is within his various books, with so called clues etc. Not so much a linear follow the path treasure map to 'X' marks the spot, but imo more of a spacial mapping of his journey and his mechanical prize. You might think of it as more of a 3D map with some snakes and ladders for good measure. Tough but doable.

To that end I place far greater importance in the unpublished MT (John Collins), and witness statements, and a lesser importance to JB's other published works, which imo have another higher agenda to inform, entertain, refute, and befuddle.

IMO Bessler wasn't an illusionist, he certainly wasn't a phantom. He was a real and well documented person who built and demonstrated some machines. I believe his machines were the real deal. If so you wouldn't be able to get your money back by claiming he contravened the Consumers Guarantee Act citing not fit for purpose or misleading advertising.

FWIW Bessler finally knew the standard OOB wheel answer was always wrong, and why, and finally knew the correct question to ask instead of going straight to the answer. He said he found it where others had looked which is an obvious mind trap to the wrong answer, tho his solution must have a strong physical resemblance to the tried and failed, imo. And so that we don't have to reinvent the wheel (excuse the pun) and search blindly, he mentors us thru his various books, albeit from behind a veil.

ATEOTD we are a community, it is a place to share the load, experiences, opinions, get excited, get disappointed, perhaps stamp your feet, maybe once in a while get some valuable feedback, or mentor someone else. All in all a place to hang out without too much judgement for the sins of your hobby.

Hey Fletcher - very cool that you would mention the Forrest Fenn treasure hunt - I go out a couple times a year as an excuse for a motorcycle adventure.





I do a three day ride and camp every year in northwest Colorado sort of casually geared to the Forrest Fenn treasure hunt. The ridemaster is a high school history teacher and explores the history of the area which today includes Dinosaur National Monument.

The first pic is looking down at the Yampa River in the park and the second is a cave on the river found with a pick axe buried in the rock wall.

The ridemaster is convinced the treasure is buried in the area and has a good rationale on this thread at the bottom of page 5:

https://advrider.com/f/threads/forrest- ... e.1086373/

Some very rough country to hide the treasure but a fun excuse for a ride!

[Fletcher]

Hey cc .. that forum was fun to read. They seem like decent chaps. I can see why your ride master is excited, being a history teacher, ex geologist and physics guy. And besides you guys get to ride the country on your bikes and have some fresh air and fun along the way.

Starting to wish Bessler had buried his secret and left a poem to find it. Might get me away from the key board and out in the fresh air. Might be reason to buy a motorbike again and join you lol.

[Art]

Was Bessler just a gifted illusionist? It goes through my head after every failure. Then I take the book of John Collins again and convince me of the opposite.

Are we chasing a phantom ? I'm getting tired.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zUEkFl ... gs=pl%2Cwn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v2xnl6 ... gs=pl%2Cwn

Its OK Ovaron , Unless Bessler had access to a video camera and cooperating 'test subjects' he couldn't have produced an apparently real construction like that claimed at R.I.T.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkV7tDyqijc

The Escherian Stairwell : Building a modern Myth

[cloud camper]

Hey cc .. that forum was fun to read. They seem like decent chaps. I can see why your ride master is excited, being a history teacher, ex geologist and physics guy. And besides you guys get to ride the country on your bikes and have some fresh air and fun along the way.

Starting to wish Bessler had buried his secret and left a poem to find it. Might get me away from the key board and out in the fresh air. Might be reason to buy a motorbike again and join you lol.

OK Fletch - you're invited to come ride with us on May 24,25,26.
Fly to Denver and you can rent a bike in Denver at
https://www.coloradomotorcycleadventures.com/ and then make the 4 hour ride to Craig, Colorado to start the ride! If you find the treasure you will have to figure out how to strap a 42 lb treasure box to your bike but I'm sure we can figure something out!

https://advrider.com/f/threads/here-we- ... 9.1364222/

38 riders already signed up!

Start studying the poem and maps!

Day 1 campsite - Steamboat Rock

[Fletcher]

You may well be right Dave. What also further confuses the issue is that JB says that some of his demonstrated wheels used different principles. Just what 'principles' was he talking about ? A clue might be that he seems to suggest in MT that many of the wheels (principles ?) there could be made to work. And some have very different methods (principles ?) of operation. Take MT's 44 and 48 for example. Nothing could be harder to see how to work, and that's why he teases with them I suspect.

But we do know that a Prime Mover is missing. It's been discussed many times. A Prime Mover added to a secondary OOB system apparently can make the whole thing work. But then for what is the purpose of the Plain-Jane unmemorable OOB system ? It's not for its torque producing abilities for sure because that's been 'done to death' thru the ages. The ol' JB 'they looked in places familiar to them', but 'where I found it' cliche.

A further question is perhaps can a Prime Mover apparatus or structure work sans OOB wheel ? I suspect not. They must be hand and glove, tho apparently just about any hand can fit the glove, to excuse the metaphor.

No wonder, as you suspect, we all think our projects fit nearly all the clues. And that when the solution is known "we all realize that we know the secret to the wheel" to quote you. If it's that simple then we all will recognize it for what it is as Karl apparently did.

Bessler writes (in JC's PM-AAMS ? page 125)

'If, having given serious consideration to my project, the Czar graciously resolves to have more for less money, then may I at least add this; I have in mind a great 'Treatise on Mechanics' which I plan to publish, with many hundreds of machines and drawings that could be printed at my home.

'In this tract it will be possible to trace my perpetual motion machine through all the stages of its development. As a result, whoever wishes to pay a certain sum of money to receive such a treatise, will be able to select and build at his discretion any machine together with my invention. The Treatise would be in folio in two volumes. It would be ready in about two years from the time I start to work on it. It will be very interesting, useful and beneficial for the public. I would have much more to say about it but, because time is short, I will add only the following, subject to your approval;

'If His Majesty the Czar would advance me 10,000 thalers for this tract, which would increase and promote the publication I could start work on it immediately; in two years he would have quite a large number of these treatises. It would include my perpetual motion machine revealed completely through all stages of its construction, which would eliminate any need for him to contribute anything else. N.B. Sufficient guarantees would be included. In the event that my perpetual motion machine was sold before my treatise was published, my project would still be finished and the treatise published. However, the machine that had been sold would not be included in the treatise, because I want to sell just one kind of machine, not all of them. I have many different kinds of machine all running on different principles. They can be moved by weights, balls, springs, internal gears, internal water, oil, alcohol and wind. I believe it is best that this information is known in advance. Certainly His Majesty the Czar will see the advantages with his enlightened mind more clearly than I could indicate. Please offer my most humble services to His Majesty the Czar.

I think the takeaway here is that Bessler was spruiking his great treatise, of many useful machines, including his PM machine. Hence why he includes alcohol and wind (as relates to other useful machines). But he also says that he has many types of PM machines running on other 'principles'.

Have I understood that correctly ?

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Fletcher,
you wrote:

Have I understood that correctly ?

Yes, you understood it correctly, many different kinds of PM's.

In fact they are not true PM's, all have their limitations.
But they work longer than a life of an human will last.
The devices are energy converting mechanism and working different as you normally think.

A well balanced system will create torque on a lever when you add a weight on one side.
But it is also creating torque when you remove some weight on one side.

In my opinion all Bessler's construction are living devices, oscillate.
They can only live when you extract energy out of the system.
They work in a feedback loop.

To make it clear, the mechanism must extract energy to be able to run.

[Fletcher]

Thanks Georg .. it seems incredible and counter intuitive that JB can have many different types of PM principles, when we can't even confirm one type. I bet if one is confirmed then it would be possible to adapt other 'principles' to create others, like JB did. But then we would know exactly what the defining mechanical change to the usual was that JB employed and found success with. I have to assume that they are all variations on the same mechanical theme or it makes no sense at all.

Which takes me back to a thread of a few days ago where 'justsomeone' asked was there something that JB learned from organ-craft that lead the way to success. I replied that imo just very good wood working skills, but perhaps something else was paramount. And if you read where he built about 100 different models before success, and you think he built some of woodcuts seen in MT, then you might conclude there is a cross pollination. And as we know some of those MT woodcut designs are quite involved and complex, even with experience. That's why I think organ-craft and perhaps clock making was valuable to him. Ultimately, apparently, the version that Karl saw was a very simple construction, and also easy to understand. Because Karl said a carpenters boy could make it. That doesn't sound like something that would require an experienced organ maker to have learned beforehand.

ETA: and I subscribe to the theory that his wheels were a gravity enabled PM of the first type i.e. contravened the First Law of Thermodynamics (energy cannot be created from nothing). But like others say it would mean that we don't currently understand (in physics speak) how a conservative force, or gradient of potential, or field of acceleration, can be used as a source of energy in and of itself. We will be able to see it and consequently completely understand it with just our eyes however, imo.

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Fletcher,
what the PM's of Bessler have in common is that they use the gravity as a energy source.

Bessler made more than 100 models, but one of them had had an construction error.

He had not designed it in this way, so he has invented his Wheel per an accident.

The only way to come Close to his Wheel designs are the sayings.

One of the most important clues are working in pairs, all is going around and the axle which will also move.

This is a construction with an loose axle

Every Wheel developer is using a fix axle, but from the sentence"the axle will also move" you can see that their design is wrong from the beginning.

You are looking for the prime mover, therefore I will give you an example.
Have a look to a block of Wood in front of you.
Definitely this Piece of Wood have some energy.
But how can you get the energy which is contained in this Wood.
You Need a Technology. You Need a starter. An Ignition.
But this Ignition must meet correct conditions to start the fire.
The Wood must be dry, you Need Oxygen and what you don't see gravity.

The fire create heat, and this is allowing to ACCELERATE FASTER THAN GRAVITY upwards.
You get fresh Oxygen to the Wood by gravity.

Same: weather upwind by sun faster than gravity , downwind, downburst by gravity.