I've been looking at MT24, and I think B's drawing is not quite right.
According to me assuming a time dial, we can see that between 8 and 6 o'clock the elements represented are not in the right place they should rest more towards 6 o'clock. This would give a positive torque, but if the wheel takes speed everything opens... It should have pulsations... When do you think?
A++
Not everything I present is functional, but a surprise can't be completely ruled out.Greetings.
If the weight at 7.30 ish is doing nothing, other than folding the small rods and lifting another rod, then it would, effectively, have already folded and be closer to 6 o'clock than where it is.
If the folding of the small rods is raising a weight, with a ratio of 1:4 for example, then it would need to rotate even further before it would start to fold.
MT 24 looks like it's trying to rotate counter clockwise. I think that the wheel is rotating counter clockwise because of the impact of the mouth closing. I think that it might work if the force the mouth opening on the right also applies force to the mouth closing on the left. On the right when the mouth opens it could tug on the mouth closing on the left so the force of gravity on both sides of the wheel are producing impact on the left. Bessler's wheel right out in the open like this. Wink wink.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Mark Twain
I think that a pulley and spring could be positioned like I drew on the MT24 drawing.
MTHard024with spring loading.gif (7.5 KiB) Viewed 2570 times
The spring loaded power could assist in the impact on the left. Each position could be loaded by the position to its right and it would would slam down on the left side of the wheel. I bet Tarsier79 would like this.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Mark Twain
Those simulations are really cool. How do you do simulations like that? Can you set the wheel in motion before you simulate it. The wheel that I created here would have maximum strength going fast enough to turn 90 degrees from the top before impacting because that's where it can impact furthest from the axle. The springs would be loaded starting at the bottom and stay loaded going along the right side up before releasing all of the tension on the left with an impact. A friend of mine plans to create a company and I wonder if he will help draft and build my design if he does start the company. It is something to do with 3D printing and drafting. I think that this MT24 design and the Veljko Milkovic pendulum reset mechanism at the axle of the pendulum are the two designs that I want tested.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Mark Twain
See I drew it. The springs are loaded starting at the bottom and stay loaded while rising along the right side. On the left (not drawn) the tension is released and the weight slams down on the wheel. The wheel is turning counter clockwise.
MTHard024with springs for the right side.gif (7.72 KiB) Viewed 2551 times
Last edited by preoccupied on Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Mark Twain
Thanks Fletcher, the simulations of RH46, and Wubbly are beautiful, but from my point of view beside what I wanted to show...
You can see the same picture and see something else lol.
I have put the engine weights (heavy) in red, you can see that the wheel is turning clockwise.
Several disadvantages and advantages, the wheel is very limited in speed, but it regulates itself in fact, if it accelerates it is transformed into disc of inertia, then it slows down and becomes again engine... If you start the wheel slowly you can see that between 8 and 6 o'clock something is wrong, B is playing with us...
A++
Not everything I present is functional, but a surprise can't be completely ruled out.Greetings.
Bessler has drawn the movement of opposed mechanisms as if the cross tensioners were rods. For the mechanism to act like it is drawn, the 1:00 circumference weight would have to do all the work. The 1:00 and 7:00 mechanisms are proportionally moving, the rest of the mechanisms have already completed their operation. The 7:00 mechanism weight doesn't act like Wubbly's sim because the inner pivot is a weight. The more weight it has to operate, the more it will lag. Advancing the mechanism either way will cause rotation in that direction.
ADD: Also note in B's original, the larger weight magically seems to change position from the radial weight to the circumferential weight to none/both. Intentional or not? (Rhetorical Q.)
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Last edited by Tarsier79 on Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
Hey thx4 .. here is the B. comments from John Collins Digital MT for MT24 and its close kin MT25. Earlier Hard Copy text in blue follows for translation comparison.
No. 24 This invention ought not to be scorned. It consists of separate levers with weights. Between the weights are small iron poleswith hinges. The poles fall inward when the levers close. There is something one must learn first before one can grasp and correctly understand the good quality of the invention.
No. 24 This invention ought not to be scorned. It consists of special weighted levers and some hinged iron rods that close between the levers and can fold inward. There is, however, more to explain about it before you will grasp and correctly understand its good qualities.
No. 25 This is the previous model except for some differences. It is sketched with longer poles. There is something misleading about the diagram, for the poles, when coming out, must not project so far out but must bend somewhat further inwardly. There is more to it than one supposes; one must study the diagram extensively.
No. 25 This is similar to the previous model except that it is drawn somewhat differently and with longer rods, there is something misleading about the diagram, because the folding rods should not project so far out but must bend further inward. There is more to this than one might think. Mark my words.
N.B. usually B. draws a pivot point with a white dot in the center of a blacked out circle, to show it pivots or is a fulcrum.
If I'm not mistaken (IINM) there are two weights per sector. One on the end of the falling lever (the driver) and the second one at the hinge (because he says its iron). And cross-tension ropes or cords.
I think the idea is that the weighted-lever begins falling after 12 o'cl and at the same time the weighted-lever on the opposite side (6 to 7 o'cl) begins to close by itself due to gravity force. It would do this anyway, without the cord connection.
IINM thx4 you have the hinge as your red weight so it would be the driver. I think as Tarsier suggests the circumference weight closest to the rim must cause the movement and open the V rods as shown in the drawing.
You obviously have a different take on how it might operate or what lessons we should be grasping ?
@Tarsier, do you have the translation of Bessler's annotated text on the side of the sketch?
If the weights in red are the heaviest (which I think they are, probably cylinders) the wheel can only turn in one direction (clockwise)
Other disadvantages if one considers that there is no rope but only small linkage (more precise) but more subject to friction.
For me a good candidate, when I will have understood the central axis which seems to me a little obscure, surely on purpose?
A++
Not everything I present is functional, but a surprise can't be completely ruled out.Greetings.
Here is a sim where i am trying to incorporate the Apologia wheel into the MT24 mechanism.
It also has the fundamental difference I've been going on about, which may, or may not, be of importance.
The rods which cross the central axle, to the other side of the wheel (not shown, because i can't get the thing to work without them) will be moving the heavy weights.
Another detail worth noting, is that the swivel points of the arms which swing radially (the lighter weights i believe) are offset in a way that reduces the distance of their resting place to the axle on the ascending side of the wheel, which isn't correctly shown in original drawing. This also causes the arm to swing a fraction later after the weight passes 12. Is the offset intentional, for this purpose, or is it simply to free up the centre, to allow the rod to pass through the middle? https://youtu.be/VqB67IyUXW4
