Posted by Darren (208.143.232.66) on May 09, 2003 at 09:04:49:
In Reply to: Re: VITW posted by Nick Hall on May 08, 2003 at 03:28:27:
::: For example, the Finsrud device clearly "works", in tabloid speak it "keeps going" - there are video clips and pages about it all over the net.
Don't be fooled... it doesn't keep going forever, it only runs for finite periods of time and then stops... every time... it *always* stops.
::: Yet no-one from the mainstream scientific community has, to my knowledge, made a big deal about this or said "Well, so PM is possible after all...".
Because the Finsrud device is not a PM device, it's simply a highly balanced, mechanical example of chaos theory art. It's beautiful and extremely cool to watch, but it's not PM.
::: In fact it is arguable that the Finsrud device actually confirms sceptics in their belief because:
::: -- it does stop occasionally
Be careful with your wording... saying it stops "occasionally" implies that under the right circumstances it might not stop... but it always stops... a better word would be it "eventually" stops.
::: -- it is clearly very accurately balanced and it is impossible to isolate it from unforseen potential energy sources.
True.
::: I haven't studied it carefully but I suspect that it is basically something which is so carefully balanced, that fluctuations in the earth's magnetic field, temperature, solar radiation etc etc etc, can at one time all work in favour of continued rotation and at other times work against it. If this is the case, then the positive and negative influences of all the possible sources (if you were able to isolate and graph them) would be akin to a chaotic plot in which there are regions of slightly positive net forces and at other times slightly negative. The average over a very very long period of time would approximate to zero, but in the short term give the _appearance_ of "O/U" behaviour.
I would agree with the statement that it's a highly balanced device and that the net forces eventually average to zero, but I doubt it's influenced by all those forces you mentioned. To me it looks like something simpler...
It looks like a steel ball, set in motion by hand, passes by magnets which are attached to long dangling rods... when the ball passes a magnet the magnet attracts towards the ball for an instant which causes the rod to swing slightly, and also slows down the ball by a small amount... some kinetic energy was transferred from the ball to rod and stored as pendulus motion... but the timing of the swinging rods and the orbiting ball is such that the next time the ball passes a magnet the rod loses a little swing as it imparts some energy back into the ball, possibly swinging away from the ball as the ball rolls closer, pulling the ball a little faster on it's track.
The dangling rods steal and then give back energy to the ball in a chaotic way, in random positive and negative amounts, but in the end the ball and the dangling rods eventually stop due to frictional losses, which are extremely minimized by the fact that the device is sealed in a plexiglass case, insulated from dust, dirt, air currents, etc.
::: In any event it is obvious that Finsrud, unlike Bessler's wheel, cannot immediately be harnessed into providing useful and obvious output energy.
Nope, it's just a beautiful, ingenius, and remarkable sculpture.
: This last point is the touchstone for all claimed devices. For example, VITW has so far declined to answer some very basic questions which are central:
: -- How long does it turn for?
: -- Does it stop? And if so, does it always stop after approximately the same time period? - (assuming a constant amount of work to start it).
: -- Can you extract output energy while it keeps working?
If you notice he's been very quiet since he made his announcement. No posts since the 6th on this forum and since the 7th on the http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2003/5/6/1315/37395 forum. Not that a day or two is a long time, but making a claim like that and then disappearing (even for a few days) causes many doubts to rise in my mind. It's one of the reasons I have tried to respond to all posts since I made my annou