Posted by Darren (208.143.232.66) on June 03, 2003 at 12:56:46:
In Reply to: Re: Question for John Collins posted by Lurker on June 03, 2003 at 11:28:41:
: Well, let me describe what I believe this way:
: I believe that one of two things are true:
: 1) Free energy and perpatual motion is NOT possible, including Bessler's wheel. Anyone who claims otherwise is deluded or a fraud. This would include Darren and all the other people who thought they had "the answer".
This is, of course, a viable option, although I would have used the word "mistaken" instead of "deluded."
I can't speak for everyone but I have found "fatal flaws" in *countless* designs... and cannot find one in my own design (NOT from lack of trying) and so if, in the end, it turns out that it doesn't work I will have been mistaken, not deluded.
I have not talked myself into thinking it will work, I am not convinced by voices in my head, I do not believe it works because my name is visible in the MT drawings... I believe it works because have done so many calculations that my head hurts... I believe it because I have been as scientific as I know how to be. I don't think that's delusional.
: 2) Free energy and perpetual motion IS possible, but it is being prevented from becoming public by a variety of means. When I say "public", I mean available to the general public for use, not just by a select few who are "in the know".
I know we've gone over this already but... in my opinion this is a paranoid viewpoint. It may be truth to some people, and I suppose it's even a *remote* possibility, but, assuming FE is possible and gets discovered every now and then... I *seriously* doubt it would be possible to track down and "disappear" every mechanical engineer, physicist, or inventor who stumbled across the solution. And I seriously doubt that the solution would never have leaked out to the world, especially with the advent of the internet and our modern world of instant communication. to me that's extremely far fetched.
I've voiced this opinion before, but I'll say it again... FE *is* possible (via the harnessing of gravity) and the two main reasons it has not been brought to light yet are A) that it's a difficult puzzle, on the order of Rubik's cube... cubed, and B) the people who are *most* qualified to solve this puzzle are either totally convinced that it's not possible (so why even try) or else decide to give it a fair try, but give up after a few failures and fall back to a priori teachings.
: Now, in addition to this, even if option 2 is true, it remains true that the majority of people who claim to have "the answer" are STILL self-deluded or frauds.
Of course you are perfectly correct in stating that there *are* self deluded people out there... and many frauds. It's a shame and in my opinion covers people like me, John Collins, Øystein, and many others, people who legitimately strive to solve the puzzle, with a cloud of doubt and distrust. Makes it hard to get anyone to take you seriously.
: The people who are "in the know", and who are suppressing public availability of free energy, would be quite happy to have all of the self-deluded people and fraudsters around.
Possibly a true statement... assuming you believe FE is already out there and supressed by the govts secret FE Suppression Agency.
This statement also sounds like you *have* in fact made a choice, you've decided that FE is possible but is being surpressed.
: They are a good way of promoting the idea that free energy is impossible, and that EVERYONE who thinks otherwise is deluded. Think of it as a sort of disinformation campaign to throw everyone off the trail of true discovery.
Where's your evidence for all this? I can easily produce mountains of evidence that every FE scam device known to man does not work... where's your evidence that some *have* worked and were supressed? And I don't mean anecdotal stories, I mean hard evidence.
: Let me repeat, I have NOT decided which of these options to believe yet.
I hear you, but it does sound as though you are swaying towards the more paranoid choice 2... but either way you're two choices A) don't leave room for the fact t
vacuous claims but nothing more, I reamain far more sceptical, of course. Darren falls in this catagory. He makes a lot of claims, but that is all they are until he provides something more substantial.
Agreed. And just so you know... I debated with myself for a long time before posting that initial claim because I feel *exactly* the same way that you do about unsubstantiated claims. I bit the bullet and went ahead for one main reason... I was stalling and procrastinating and felt that if the world (or the FE world at least) was watching me it might make me uncomfortable, get me out of my safety zone and actually get me moving. I did it purely to motivate myself, not to convince anyone.
I may post arguments here and on other lists supporting FE and Bessler and my design, but my goal is NOT to convince people of anything, not with words... the convincing happens when the prototype is done. For right now, for me, it's just intelligent debate and imaginitive conjecture. It's just fun to talk about :-)
: Vacuous claims in the absence of other substantiating material do not inspire any sort of belief for me or for most other people.
I can identify with that. I feel pretty much the same way.
Thanks!
Darren